This has much broader implications for the US economy and rule of law in the US.
If government procurement rules intended for national security risks can be abused as a way to punish Anthropic for perceived lack of loyalty, why not any other company that displeases the administration like Apple or Amazon?
This marks an important turning point for the US.
turning point? The episode is literally playing out the AEC's (read: war-footed government) 1954 Oppenheimer security-clearance hearing in real-time for a fresh modern-day audience.
> much broader implications
Setting aside the spectacular metastasis of a lawless kakistocracy that is literally rewriting the facts on record...
Anthropic's leadership has wisely attempted to make it clear that its product is not fit for the US DoD's purpose/objective, which is automated killing at scale.
It would be (is) grossly, historically negligent to operate weapons with LLMs. Anthropic built systems for a thuggocracy that only understands bribery, blackmail, and force.
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Anthropic isn’t the inventor here, they are a service provider. The government can easily go find a different service provider, or if none of them will allow their service to be used for war, then the government should develop their own tech.
Saying the government can just nationalize any company purely because they want to use the tech to kill people has pretty big implications and his historically against what this country stands for.
>That’s not their call to make. Inventors of technologies that could be used for war have never had the right to deny access to those technologies to the elected civilian government.[1]
>[1] The government can make you go over to southeast Asia and kill people personally.
Is this a normative statement? In other words are you simply claiming "the government has men with guns and therefore can force people/companies do whatever they want", or are you claiming that "the government should be able to commandeer civilian resources for whatever it wants"?
It’s a descriptive statement about the law. But you’re mischaracterizing the normative principle underlying the law. It’s not based on power, but rather the moral duties incumbent on citizens.
>but rather the moral duties incumbent on citizens.
Is it a "moral duty" to aid your government, especially in the current social/political environment? Conscription is theoretically still allowed in the US, and you're theoretically supposed to register for the SSS, but nobody has been prosecuted for failure to do so in decades. That suggests the "moral duty" aspect has significantly weakened. Moreover if we're making comparisons to the draft, it's also worth noting the draft allows for conscientious objection. That makes your claim of "that’s not their call to make" quite questionable.
> That’s not their call to make.
Whether they participate voluntarily in a commercial transaction or participate only when compelled to by law (setting aside the question of whether the government does or should have that power) is certainly their call to make.
Just as any individual can decide whether to volunteer, whether to wait until drafted, or whether to refuse to be drafted and face the consequences.
(History shows these decisions, and the rights to make them, are meaningful at scale!)
Finally, governments who expect their leading scientists to do groundbreaking work simply out of fear of imprisonment are NGMI against governments whose scientists believe in their cause.
If anyone thinks the moral justification for selective service has diminished, they should launch a campaign to repeal it and see how it goes over. I suspect that the non-prosecution more reflects the public’s leniency in the absence of major threats since the fall of the soviet union than a change in the underlying normative view.
Conscientious objection still puts the ball in the government’s court. You have to make your case to the government that you have a deeply held religious or moral belief that precludes participation in war, and then the government decides what it wants to do. It’s not clear to me how a corporation would prove the existence of such a belief. But even if that was possible, it wouldn’t give the company the right to decide unilaterally.
The moral duty of a citizen is to sabotage their country when it becomes immoral.
Nearly every country would be 'sabotaged' then - and rightfully so. ALL gvts are a sophisticated manifestation of the more lowly protection racket run by the mafia. i.e 'We protect you from harm by the other mafia'.
> It’s not based on power, but rather the moral duties incumbent on citizens.
People largely tend not to believe in this kind of jingoistic bullshit nowadays.
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Anthropic can certainly make the call to deny access this way, but then the US govt can choose not to make contracts with Anthropic. So what's the issue?
The whole reason this is a story is that the government won't just refuse to contract, it will put the equivalent of soft sanctions on the company because Anthropic refuses to contract.
Hang on, companies dont get to have the rights of a person and not be conscripted.
That’s my point. It would be odd to say that a corporation has a broader right not to be compelled to aid war efforts than a person does.
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I have seen a lot of your posts on here about political topics, and they are always disingenuous, misleading, and geared towards providing a thin veneer of reasonability over any form of morality.
> If Congress doesn’t want AI-powered killing machines, they’re the ones who have the right to make that call.
You have it backwards, and you know it. If Congress wants to invoke natsec concerns to force companies to sell to the federal government, then they have to explicitly say so, and any such legislation and exercise of execute power pursuant thereto would be heavily litigated.
> The government can make you go over to southeast Asia and kill people personally. It’s totally incompatible with that to say companies should be allowed to veto the use of their technologies in war.
Yes, it's legal to have drafts, but that's not relevant, and also includes certain exceptions for conscientious objectors. It doesn't matter if its paradoxical or ironic that an individual could be pressed into military service whereas a private company doesn't have to sell stuff to the federal government.
this entire administration has been a constant stream of "important turning point for the US" moments
I think most, perhaps all of those "important turning points" aren't really important turning points but just business as usual.
Is threatening an ally business as usual? Tell me about all the times that recent presidents threatened a NATO ally...
Then you know and understand nothing.
Yep, where does your trust lay now? It's been a minute of pretending it'll be okay.
Nothing has changed in decades regarding this. People just like to pretend something new is happening, because they're extremely desperate to proclaim a fundamental turning / ending of the US (which is why every single event brings out those claims: this time is different! America will never recover from this! etc).
US tech companies were previously forced into compliance with PRISM or threatened with destruction (see: escalating fines to infinity against Yahoo, forcing their eventual compliance).
You know what's new? This administration is doing out in the open what used to go on quietly.
> Nothing has changed
> You know what's new? This administration is doing out in the open what used to go on quietly.
So this administration has got bold and the behaviour has become overt.
Rather it's business as usual.
The turning point happened when Trump was reelected. One could argue the turning point happened Jan. 6 2020 and nobody truly cared. The consequence should have been for all insurrectionists and Trump himself to be tried for treason and be imprisoned indefinitely. Yet here we are.
> The consequence should have been for all insurrectionists and Trump himself to be tried for treason and be imprisoned indefinitely.
People have this intuitive sense that there's some kind of authority of truth or justice, an available recourse that we could've and should've used.
But that sense is incorrect.
What we actually have the political and justice systems that Trump and his adherent have, so far, quite successfully subverted.
It was when the supreme court judged he could act like a king, the summer before he was elected, inventing things the constitution never said and setting the example of lawlessness Trump now follows up on confidently.
And continuing to pull on that thread, when the Senate refused to vote on Supreme Court nominees for the president in 2016.
Call it the pebble that started the landslide but I lay it at the Patriot Act, which was passed in October, 2001. The passing of the law was bad enough but the subsequent extensions of the law by both parties cemented the government's intent.
In other words we might have killed Osama Bin Laden, but he won. The U.S truly is a "shadow of it's former self."
I'd agree - Trump fulfils the criteria of treason.
It's interesting to see that nothing happens despite this. Now he started another war to distract from his involvement in the huge Epstein network. Also, by the way, quite interesting to see how many people were involved here; there is no way Ghislaine could solo-organise all of that yet she is the only one in prison. That makes objectively no sense.
Another flawed democracy just sentenced their ex-president who attempted a insurrection (and similarly claimed broad presidential powers and immunity) to life in prison. Interesting contrast.
e: Americans seem to be surprised to learn that their democracy is indeed classified as a flawed democracy for more than a decade by The Economist due to decades of backsliding (the more rapid regression lately is not yet accounted for, but I wouldn't be surprised if the outcome of the 2026 elections results in a hybrid regime assessment in 2027).
You'd have a job arguing it's treason legally. In the US that's "levying War against [the United States], or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort".
They were going to do him for conspiracy to defraud the United States and conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding, re. the 2020 stuff before he got reelected.
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Your take is a call for civil war. You're obviously wrong about "treason" since even larger majorities voted for Trump in 2024.
How things played out isn’t what decides if it was treason or not.
The US is already in a state of civil war, that war was declared in 2016.
Half the country just hasn't accepted the reality that the other half refuses to share a society with them and wants them dead.
The same is true about Meta and US antitrust law, or the GDPR and DMA in Europe.
Governments should not be permitted to introduce regulations against companies of this kind if the regulations can be enforced selectively and with regulator discretion, as the GDPR and antitrust definitely are. The free-speech implications are staggering.
Trump was threatening Netflix for having a democrat on the board last week. They seized 10% of Intel. They forced Nvidia to tithe 25% of China revenue into a slush fund. The FCC has been used to censor comedy. The ship has sailed and the only consequence has been hand-wringing.
Yeah the passivity of the US population will be remembered for generations. Of course it's the people talking about freedom the most that do the least, as usual, big mouths are antithetical to actions.
The US educational system has been manufacturing these dual career specialists that are competent in their careers and believe that makes them specialists in all other area, but they get played like fools constantly. The level of discourse, of public conversation, is like 7th graders. Until you get to politics, then it's "sports talk" with "winning" being all that matters, even if winning means the destruction of law and of completely corrupt forever future.
And, I believe, a sufficiently comfortable population isn't motivated to act. With social media and streaming, people aren't bored enough/are too engagingly distracted to bother.
It’s not passivity - it’s active approval. 40% of people actively cheer everything he is doing
I was checking Trump approval ratings yesterday. I didn’t have high hopes but I thought it had to be under 35% at this point (I think in a sane country it has to be <10% or at least <20% after the nonstop madness dropping everyday). But nope, every poll places him at >40% approval or ever so slightly below 40%. To me that’s definitive confirmation that “it’s on Trump and his cronies, not the American people” is nonsense. It’s on at least 40% of American people. They weren’t blindsided by false promises, they want this.
Exactly. The Trump Show is primarily a media production. Bombing Iranians is a special effect that happens to get people killed. Dead Iranians won't be on camera. The media backers, Fox and now CBS and Paramount (the Weiss empire), will support this and make sure the American people like the war. Americans enjoy their propaganda, it tells them they're the white heroes.
https://edition.cnn.com/2026/02/23/politics/trump-approval-r...
A recent report shows the approval numbers, for all americans it's at 36%. For white americans, its at 45%
I didn’t see that one, I think I saw 41% on NYTimes, 41% on Reuters, 39% on The Economist, 42% on YouGov, and 43%, 40% elsewhere I don’t recall.
Even 36% is sky high for what he did.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/polls/donald-trump-appro...
https://www.reuters.com/graphics/TRUMP-POLLS-AUTOMATED/APPRO...
https://www.economist.com/interactive/trump-approval-tracker
Utter idiocy at election day is not passivity.
History will put Trumpers and Confederate at the same level of despicability.
You mean have a holiday for him? 4-8 states have a Confederacy Memorial Day.
Okay, if you have big actions to show off, then show us how it’s done.
You step up and start shooting at the heartless monsters running the first (US armed forces) and second (ICE) most well-funded militaries in the world. Go ahead. We’ll be right there behind you.
(Yeah, I’m burning some hn karma for this, I imagine.)
Thank you for giving an example of what I’m talking about. You’re there fantasising about armed conflict when there are a million different actions one can take.
But nope, only words, words and more words.
It's part of the dismal/pathetic form of American exceptionalism that's taken root in the last decade.
"We mustn't consider dealing with problem x because it wasn't considered important by our founding fathers"
"China are catching up, so we need to cower behind a tariff wall rather than risk losing an open competition"
"Other countries with similar legal systems have successfully reformed their supreme courts, but there's nothing we can learn from them"
"We shouldn't constrain rogue leaders because of, er, something to do with King George III"
...and now "we can't push back against the regime, because they'll shoot us if we do".
It's so weird - a huge shift in such a short period of time. As an outsider who wishes America well, it's really sad to see.
None of this is entirely new. Americans have always fetishised their constitution or founding fathers. While there has been an era of free trade, that is over, and I think the west in general is in a difficult position (ultimately as a result of believing the "end of history" BS).
As for getting shot, while the chance of getting shot in the US for opposing the government is much higher than in similar circumstances in somewhere like the UK (which is far from perfect - but rarely actually shoots people), its also much, much lower than in Iran or China or Saudi Arabia.
Pushing back against the US government is a lot safer than taking part in something like the 2022 protests that ousted the Sri Lankan government, and lots of normally apolitical people took part in that (which was why it succeeded).
I believe that the biggest problem in the US is the constitution. It's next to impossible to change so the only way to fix it is replacing it entirely with a new one. But good luck with that...
> only words, words and more words.
Your ignorance of reality does not define reality.
Actions that are words aren't much of an action.
It’s 5am on a Saturday. What millions of actions do you suggest, O just-as-wordy-yet-holier-than-thou HN commentor?
Assuming this is in good faith: think about it yourself, are you seriously waiting for people to tell you what to do? Use your critical thinking skills, read history about similar situations. If you can't, find someone OFFLINE that will. And don't go telling your plans on the web.
Get organized. Join a mass movement, a local group or a union. There are many people doing things. Stop complaining then excusing yourself for not being one of them.
No one can do everything but everyone can do something.
If you are in law enforcement, do not follow clearly unlawful orders. The president is not your boss. This is a functioning democracy.
If you are a librarian, do not hide otherwise lawful books that the current administration dislikes.
If you are in logistics, do not collect obviously unconstitutional taxes. Make sure to challenge them in courts first.
If you are in a university, stick to what is true and scientifically sound. Do not hide inconvenient truths.
If you are a baker, do not refuse to make a rainbow colored cake just because you are worried what the people wearing metaphorically brown shirts might say.
The list goes on and on and on. This has been well documented throughout history. Fascism needs a seed to thrive, and that seed is people complying in advance. Not with actual laws, but with the idea what direction the law will take, just because it's easier for them. People not helping other people because immigration is not in vogue right now and who knows what the neighbors might say.
https://commonslibrary.org/198-methods-of-nonviolent-action/ here's some to get you started
The first 17 of those are all variations on “make words”. :P
Do you know how the deadliest conflict of the XXth century eventually came to be? The words of one Adolf Hitler.
Don't dismiss words: they are the necessary link between (individual) thoughts and collective deeds.
PS. Trump also got there with words: speeches, slogans, imprecations
It's just weird that whenever a shooting happens anywhere else in the world, or they pass some draconian surveillance law, Americans criticize that country for not having a Second Amendment and rising up in violence against their government.
And that whenever a mass shooting happens in the US, Americans reassure themselves that gun violence is a price worth paying for the Second Amendment. And there is a run on pawn shops and gun stores because mass shootings are the best form of advertising America's billion dollar gun lobby has.
And that Americans will wax poetic about watering the Tree of Liberty with the Blood of Tyrants and Patriots any time gun control comes up, because they believe their Second Amendment is an absolute vouchsafe against tyranny and because of that, they and they alone are the only truly free country.
And they were willing to rise up in Portland.
And they were willing to rise up during COVID.
And they were willing to rise up on Jan 6th.
And they're willing to shoot up schools and black churches and gay nightclubs and mosques so often it no longer makes the news.
But now, with blatant and undeniable tyranny in their face and shooting them dead in the streets... nothing.
Not that violence would necessarily be productive (although historically speaking no social or political progress happens without it)... but it's weird that the most violent society in human history, born of genocide and bathed in blood, with more guns than people and gun violence enshrined as its second most important and fundamental virtue, the land of "give me liberty or give me death" is all of a sudden the most timid.
Like goddamn throw a Molotov cocktail or something.
This is just a (bad) caricature of Americans, it’s not even very accurate of rural Americana or even Deep South rural. Most Americans just wake up, go to work, feed the kids, go to bed until they die, like most any other “first world” nation.
That's true but when specifically talking about gun ban laws they said it shouldn't be done because of being able to oppose a tyrannical government
You’ll find people here who are in America and are surprised by a comment like yours. They have guns, they don’t read the news and aren’t troubled by what’s occurring.
It's the image America has always projected of itself - aggressive and defiant, a nation of cowboys with Bibles in one hand and six-shooters in the other, rebels against any authority but God. I live in the South and have all of my life. I've had countless arguments with gun owners and gun rights people, and I know the arguments they use, and how proud they are of the image.
You're making the mistake of assuming an attribute of a culture cannot be accurate unless it's 100% accurate about every member.
I think it's perfectly valid to call Americans to the carpet when they won't live up to their stated principles, if only because of how obnoxious they've been about their own sense of exceptionalism, and how their guns serve as an absolute vouchsafe against tyranny.
History is going to note that the only times Americans attempted a revolution against their government was first in defense of slavery and second in defense of fascism, and that isn't a good look. Replying with #notallamericans doesn't help.
edit: OK partial mea culpa as the US had anti-slavery revolts[0], but the two events that will stand out for their lasting impact and scope are the Civil War and Jan. 6th. The Revolutionary War doesn't count because they were British at the time.
[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_rebellion_and_resistance...
But the Dow is over 50,000!
That is, the money doesn't care so long as it's still profitable. When the recession comes a Democrat will be allowed back in to fix things.
See Liz Truss.
Yes and it stands for the Department of War now.
No one after Liz Truss fixed anything in Britain.
I think the fix was reversing the idiotic tax cuts that Liz Truss promised. It doesn't fix every single problem ever for England but nothing ever does.
I think the solution is also obvious for the United States — higher taxes and lower government spending. We need to do both. However, you can't get elected if you promise both those things.
15%?
Its called corporatism and is a part of classical fascism.
Isn’t there some kind of term for when the government controls the means of production. I’ll think about it. It’s one of those terms that’s been thrown around so loosely by this regime you knew they were going there.
It's a core part of fascism.
I don't see a good reason to downvote you, though that's a pattern here these days. But I do have a question about your statement. This move certainly has the hallmarks of fascism. But how is it corporatism when it's the elected government that's trying to punish a corporation? Granted that this regime is deep in the pockets of the corporations and billionaires. But it looks like they would have spared Anthropic if they capitulated to the regime's demands and bent their back over. This seems more like retribution for refusal of loyalty rather than corporate sabotage.
> But it looks like they would have spared Anthropic if they capitulated to the regime's demands and bent their back over.
Yeah dude, that's the point.
That's the opposite of corporatism. Corporatism would be if the corporations made demands of the government, and the government bent over backwards.
The US government has lots of corporatism, but this isn't an example of that.
There are always winners and losers in political discussions not every corporation could have control over decision making. But that doesn't mean companies aren't playing a major rool in decisions. I'd imagine companies owned by Larry Ellison (fox and soon cnn) have a much larger role in decision making and agenda setting that most people are comfortable with.
Corporatism/corporatocracy is about representative groups from industries being embedded in the state and their interests shaping state policy.
The current US administration's relationships with corporations is more seeking to maximise how much bribe money it can extract from them, whilst undermining them with counterproductive policies no matter how big the tax breaks are.
I'm not sure I fully understood your point, but about the question "how fascism if elected?": the Nazi Party won (i.e., it was the most voted party) in multiple elections in the late 20s/early 30s.
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*capitalism ftfy
Corporations learn about “first they came for [Apple Inc.] but I am not [Apple Inc.] so I didn’t do anything”.
outside of just the tech sector, this country has already crossed MANY irreversible turning points. also, good luck with your midterm elections. we have started war with Iran. cheers from Barcelona from this American refugee.
Not really a turning point, the US has been turning for months, ever since the felatio of inauguration. This is just another rung on the ladder
This isn’t new. Maybe some people are just now realizing it.
Take the stated tool for this action, the Defense Production Act ("DPA") [1]. It was passed in 1950. What does it cover? Well, lots of things. The DPA has been invoked many times over 76 years.
Notably in 1980 it was expanded to include "energy", I guess in response to the 1970s OPEC Oil Crisis.
Remember during he pandemic when gas prices skyrocketed? As an aside, that was Trump's fault. But given that "energy" is a "material good" under the DPA, the government could've invoked it to tackle high energy prices and didn't.
So, the government is willing to invoke the DPA to protect corporate and wealthy interests, which now includes military applications of AI for imperialist purposes, but never for you, the average citizen. IT's weird how that keeps consistently happening.
The US government has consistently acted to further the interests of US corporations and the ultra-wealthy. You probably just haven't been paying attention until now.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Production_Act_of_1950
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Your language suggests you’re an ideological supporter of trump but I’m curious:
What exactly is being imposed by anthropic?
This is from the anthropic letter:
> We held to our exceptions for two reasons. First, we do not believe that today’s frontier AI models are reliable enough to be used in fully autonomous weapons. Allowing current models to be used in this way would endanger America’s warfighters and civilians. Second, we believe that mass domestic surveillance of Americans constitutes a violation of fundamental rights.
Do you see these views as “left wing”? Or what do you disagree with here?
It isn't a left wing stance though. It's standing for the constitution. At the cost of going against the illegal state demands.
Compliance with the DoD doesn't remove big tech's complicity.
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I would argue we're miles away from an important turning point, it's been turning so much since then, its basically a full circle now
Im sorry to say the turning point has well passed. The US is a facist country with leaders who will flaunt the rule of law.
Please memorize the 14 points of fascism, you will see examples of this multiple times a day. Its ecerywhere.
i genuinely do not understand why anyone is acting like this is something new; has this not been the status quo since forever?
futhermore this is kind of a naive framing painting the state as somehow separate from majority of the capital...
Are you claiming it has been status quo for the US government to king make companies through the usage of the defense protection act when one entity refuses to remove safeguards? Do you have any examples or is this just the worldview that aligns with your own?
Sure, the state has always had theoretical power to do this, but when was the last time something remotely like this actually happened?
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No, this is far from the status quo for US government, it is not ordinary corruption, nor is it going to stop here.
Trump and associates have used the machinery of state to attack their enemies, attacked and belittled the judiciary while trying to subvert it, and demanded fealty from large businesses under threat of destroying them. It is unprecedented, reckless and a very dangerous moment, unfortunately not just the US has to live with the consequences.
If you think it is business as usual you need to do some reading of history, specifically a century ago in Germany.