Suddenly all this focus on world models by Deep mind starts to make sense. I've never really thought of Waymo as a robot in the same way as e.g. a Boston Dynamics humanoid, but of course it is a robot of sorts.
Google/Alphabet are so vertically integrated for AI when you think about it. Compare what they're doing - their own power generation , their own silicon, their own data centers, search Gmail YouTube Gemini workspace wallet, billions and billions of Android and Chromebook users, their ads everywhere, their browser everywhere, waymo, probably buy back Boston dynamics soon enough (they're recently partnered together), fusion research, drugs discovery.... and then look at ChatGPT's chatbot or grok's porn. Pales in comparison.
Google has been doing more R&D and internal deployment of AI and less trying to sell it as a product. IMHO that difference in focus makes a huge difference. I used to think their early work on self-driving cars was primarily to support Street View in thier maps.
There was a point in time when basically every well known AI researcher worked at Google. They have been at the forefront of AI research and investing heavily for longer than anybody.
It’s kind of crazy that they have been slow to create real products and competitive large scale models from their research.
But they are in full gear now that there is real competition, and it’ll be cool to see what they release over the next few years.
>It’s kind of crazy that they have been slow to create real products and competitive large scale models from their research.
Not really. If Google released all of this first instead of companies that have never made a profit and perhaps never will, the case law would simply be the copyright holders suing them for infringement and winning.
I also think the presence of Sergey Brin has been making a difference in this.
Ex-googler: I doubt it, but am curious for rationale (i know there was a round of PR re: him “coming back to help with AI.” but just between you and me, the word on him internally, over years and multiple projects, was having him around caused chaos b/c he was a tourist flitting between teams, just spitting out ideas, but now you have unclear direction and multiple teams hearing the same “you should” and doing it)
the rebuke is that lack of chaos makes people feel more orderly and as if things are going better, but it doesn't increase your luck surface area, it just maximizes cozy vibes and self interested comfort.
In Assistant having higher-ups spitting ideas and random thoughts ended up in people mistakenly assume that we really wanted to go/do that, meaning that chaos resulted in ill and cancelled projects.
The worst part was figuring what happened way too late. People were having trying to go for promo for a project that didn't launch. Many people got angry, some left, the product felt stale and leadership&management lost trust.
Isn’t that what the parent is describing? “Ill and cancelled projects” <==> “luck surface area”, and “trying to go for promotion” <==> “cozy vibes and self-interested comfort”?
One of my first hard lessons at G was all the little sayings mean whatever you want them to mean. You can end up really confused in conversation with someone who uses a saying to justify something you feel is the opposite of the saying.
i.e. “trying to go for promotion” <==> “cozy vibes and self-interested comfort”...promo-hunting is the opposite of cozy vibes, i.e. rest and vest. My first week at G, someone took me aside privately for was advising _not_ to be promo-seeking and that being a ladder climber was a recipe for unhappiness. Why? More or less because it was a crapshoot and also wasn't based on achievement as much as perception, and there's a certain type of person who is very good at managing perception. They are not a good person. And they were right on that.
“Ill and cancelled projects” <==> “luck surface area”...I'm about 90% sure I know exactly what project the poster was talking about. To be honest more straightforward than I was in my initial reply, "increasing luck surface area" is one the most fucking insane reframings of "working cross purposes on the flavor of the day." It's not like Sergey's showing up and saying "I know we must do $X" and then everyone in 6 step-leader chain in the 3 orgs affected hears that immediately, is immediately on board, and shepherds it to a conclusion.
People are people.
75% of what Sergey says is gonna be out of context bullshit because he lacks the familiarity and deep understanding you get from grappling with a problem over time.
80% of your management chain will quietly ignore what he said because they understand this, and understand that you're supposed to be polite to the higher up dilletantes, but continue working as planned.
That's not to say this is great or doesn't have it's own downsides.
Something big at Google I did ended up extremely fucked up because my local org's engineering team was super focused on making Project $Y a big deal, even though VPs and directors across 3 orgs were begging for us to do work on finishing up Project $X, and I had that work done 3 years earlier.
But, all it took was A) me being an engineer B) middle engineering management in my org not giving a shit, because middle management was newly promoted during COVID, and in that bucket of 80% of overachievers who are playing personality games. (c.f. Ian Hickson's leaving Google essay and how decision making evolved to be based on "how do I benefit"). And engineering leads in that org were super excited about project $Y, so everything else be damned, they were going to do project $Y and anyone thinking about project $X was causing trouble.
You'd think I'd just go to the VPs then, right? But I decided not to and leave. Because even if I did and they backed me up, the fact I was telling anyone at all that Project $X wasn't gonna happen this year either* got me slapped with a troublemaker label, de facto demoted, and a bad performance review. Doubling down on that and asking for an audience with VP(s) involved to correct this would lead, at best, to a narrow short term win, while the bullying would continue until I left, and they had already curtailed my ability to leave by giving me a bad performance review based on vague "not a team player" stuff.
If you're into sports / NFL at all, this is the lesson that Jim Schwartz never learned, and why he'll never be a head coach. You need to be perceived as a team player who won't create any problems to be invited into the backroom, or in my case, be allowed to have strong opinions on what decisions are made in the backroom.
My dynamic range of professional experience is high, dropout => waiter => found startup => acquirer => Google.
You're making an interesting point that I somewhat agree with from the perspective of someone was...clearly a little more feral than his surroundings in Google, and wildly succeeded and ultimately quietly failed because of it.
The important bit is "great man" theory doesn't solve lack of dynamism. It usually makes things worse. The people you read about in newspapers are pretty much as smart as you, for better or worse.
I actually disagreed with the Sergey thing along the same lines, it was being used as a parable for why it was okay to do ~nothing in year 3 and continue avoiding what we were supposed to ship in year 1, because only VPs outside my org and the design section in my org would care.
Not sure if all that rhymes or will make any sense to you at all. But I deeply respect the point you are communicating, and also mean to communicate that there's another just as strong lesson: one person isn't bright enough to pull that off, and the important bit there isn't "oh, he isn't special", it's that it makes you even more careful building organizations that maintain dynamism and creativity.
Yeah people seem to be pretty poor at judging the impact of 'key' people.
E.g. Steve Jobs was absolutely fundamental to the turn around of Apple. Will Brin have this level of incremental impact on the Goog/Alphabet of today? Nah.
The difference is: Apple had one "key person", Jobs, and yes the products he drove made the company successful. Now Jobs has gone I haven't seen anything new.
But if you look at Google, there isn't one key product. There are a whole pile of products that are best in class. Search (cringe, I know it's popular here to say Google search sucks and perhaps it does, but what search engine is far better?), YouTube, Maps, Android, Waymo, GMail, Deep Mind, the cloud infrastructure, translate, lens (OCR) and probably a lot of others I've forgotten. Don't forget Sheets and Docs, which while they have been replicated by Microsoft and others now were first done by Google. Some of them, like Maps, seem to have swapped entire teams - yet continued to be best in class. Predicting Google won't be at the forefront on the next advance seems perilous.
Maybe these products have key people as you call them, but the magic in Alphabet doesn't seem to be them. The magic seems to be Alphabet has some way to create / acquire these keep people. Or perhaps Alphabet just knows how to create top engineering teams that keep rolling along, even when the team members are replaced.
Apple produced one key person, Jobs. Alphabet seems to be a factory creating lots of key people moving products along. But as Google even manages to replace these key people (as they did for Maps) and still keep the product moving, I'm not sure they are the key to Googles success.
Docs was just an acquisition of Writely, an early „Web 2.0“ document editor service, so „first done by google“ is a bit imprecise
I'm in a similar position and generally agree with your take, but the plus side to his involvement is if he believed in your project or viewpoint he would act as the ultimate red tape cutter.
And there is absolutely nothing more valuable at G (no snark)
(cheers, don't read too much signal into my thoughts, it's more negative than I'd intend. Just was aware it was someone going off PR, and doing hero worship that I myself used to do, and was disabused over 7 years there, and would like other people outside to disabuse themselves of. It's a place, not the place)
That makes sense. A "secret shopper" might be a better way to avoid that but wouldn't give him the strokes of being the god in the room.
He was shopping for other strokes from Google employees: https://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/the-exchange/alleged-affair-...
Oh ffs, we have an external investor who behaves like that. Literally set us back a year on pet nonsense projects and ideas.
What'd he say
That the rocket company should buy an LLM
Please, Google was terrible about using the tech the had long before Sundar, back when Brin was in charge.
Google Reader is a simple example: Googl had by far the most popular RSS reader, and they just threw it away. A single intern could have kept the whole thing running, and Google has literal billions, but they couldn't see the value in it.
I mean, it's not like being able to see what a good portion of America is reading every day could have any value for an AI company, right?
Google has always been terrible about turning tech into (viable, maintained) products.
Is there an equivalent to Godwin's law wrt threads about Google and Google Reader?
See also: any programming thread and Rust.
I'm convinced my last groan will be reading a thread about Google paper clipping the world, and someone will be moaning about Google Reader.
“A more elegant weapon of a civilised age.”
Lol, it seems obvious in retrospect, there really, really, needs to be.
Therefore we now have “Vinkel’s Law”
It's far from the only example https://killedbygoogle.com/
I never get the moaning about killing Reader. It was never about popularity or user experience.
Reader had to be killed because it [was seen as] a suboptimal ad monetization engine. Page views were superior.
Was Google going to support minimizing ads in any way?
Right. Reader was not a case of apathy and failure to see the product’s value.
It was Google clearly seeing the product’s value, and killing it because that value was detrimental to their ads business.
How is this relevant? At best it’s tangentially related and low effort
Can you not vibe code it back into existence yet?
Took a while but I got to the google reader post. Self host tt-rss, it's much better
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Because after the death of Epstein he suddenly had a lot of free time?
https://www.wsj.com/finance/jeffrey-epstein-advised-sergey-b...
If this is true, this is disappointing :/
On a similar topic, it is worth mentioning the entrepreneurs that are forced into sex (or let’s say, very pushed) by VCs.
For those who feel safe or taking it as a joke, this affects women AND men.
Some people are going to be disappointed about their heroes.
Dont mention the recent Eric Schmidt scandal.
Barely any of these jokers are clean. Makes MZ look seemingly normal in comparison.
>> If this is true, this is disappointing
Wait for the second set of files...
"...One of Mr. Epstein’s former boat captains told The New York Times earlier this year that he had seen Mr. Brin on the island more than once..."
https://dnyuz.com/2026/01/31/powerful-men-who-turn-up-in-the...
What's striking is the sheer scale of Epstein's and Maxwell's scheduling and access. The source material makes it hard to even imagine how two people could sustain that many meetings/parties/dinners/victims, across so many places, with such high-profile figures. And, how those figures consistently found the time to meet them.
Ghislaine making a speech at the UN... https://youtu.be/-h5K3hfaXx4?t=350
> It’s kind of crazy that they have been slow to create real products and competitive large scale models from their research.
It’s not that crazy. Sometimes the rational move is to wait for a market to fully materialize before going after it. This isn’t a Xerox PARC situation, nor really the innovator’s dilemma, it’s about timing: turning research into profits when market conditions finally make it viable. Even mammoths like Google are limited in their ability to create entirely new markets.
This take makes even more sense when you consider the costs of making a move to create the market. The organizational energy and its necessary loss in focus and resources limits their ability to experiment. Arguably the best strategy for Google: (1) build foundational depth in research and infrastructure that would be impossible for competition to quickly replicate (2) wait for the market to present a clear new opportunity for you (3) capture it decisively by focusing and exploiting every foundational advantage Google was able to build.
> It’s kind of crazy that they have been slow to create real products and competitive large scale models from their research.
I always thought they deliberately tried to contain the genie in the bottle as long as they could
Their unreleased LaMDA[1] famously caused one of their own engineers to have a public crashout in 2022, before ChatGPT dropped. Pre-ChatGPT they also showed it off in their research blog[2] and showed it doing very ChatGPT-like things and they alluded to 'risks,' but those were primarily around it using naughty language or spreading misinformation.
I think they were worried that releasing a product like ChatGPT only had downside risks for them, because it might mess up their money printing operation over in advertising by doing slurs and swears. Those sweet summer children: little did they know they could run an operation with a seig-heiling CEO who uses LLMs to manufacture and distribute CSAM worldwide, and it wouldn't make above-the-fold news.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaMDA#Sentience_claims
[2] https://research.google/blog/lamda-towards-safe-grounded-and...
The front runner is not always the winner. If they were able to keep pace with openai while letting them take all the hits and miss steps, it could pay off.
Time will tell if LLM training becomes a race to the bottom or the release of the "open source" ones proves to be a spoiler. From the outside looking while ChatGPT has brand recognition for the average person who could not tell the difference between any two LLMs google offering Gemini in android phones could perhaps supplant them.
I swear the Tay incident caused tech companies to be unnecessarily risk averse with chatbots for years.
Attention is all you need was written by Googlers IIRC.
Indeed, none of the current AI boom would’ve happened without Google Brain and their failure to execute on their huge early lead. It’s basically a Xerox Parc do-over with ads instead of printers.
It has always felt to me that the LLM chatbots were a surprise to Google, not LLMs, or machine learning in general.
Not true at all. I interacted with Meena[1] while I was there, and the publication was almost three years before the release of ChatGPT. It was an unsettling experience, felt very science fiction.
[1]: https://research.google/blog/towards-a-conversational-agent-...
The surprise was not that they existed: There were chatbots in Google way before ChatGPT. What surprised them was the demand, despite all the problems the chatbots have. The pig problem with LLMs was not that they could do nothing, but how to turn them into products that made good money. Even people in openAI were surprised about what happened.
In many ways, turning tech into products that are useful, good, and don't make life hell is a more interesting issue of our times than the core research itself. We probably want to avoid the valuing capturing platform problem, as otherwise we'll end up seeing governments using ham fisted tools to punish winners in ways that aren't helpful either
The uptake forced the bigger companies to act. With image diffusion models too - no corporate lawyer would let a big company release a product that allowed the customer to create any image...but when stable diffusion et al started to grow like they did...there was a specific price of not acting...and it was high enough to change boardroom decisions
ChatGPT really innovated on making the chat not say racist things that the press could report on. Other efforts before this failed for that reason.
Right. The problem was that people under appreciated ‘alignment’ even before the models were big. And as they get bigger and smarter it becomes more of an issue.
Well, I must say ChatGPT felt much more stable than Meena when I first tried it. But, as you said, it was a few years before ChatGPT was publicly announced :)
It was a surprise to OpenAI too. ChatGPT was essentially a demo app to showcase their API, it was not meant to be a mass consumer product. When you think about it, ChatGPT is a pretty awkward product name, but they had to stick with it.
Google and OpenAI are both taking very big gambles with AI, with an eye towards 2036 not 2026. As are many others, but them in particular.
It'll be interesting to see which pays off and which becomes Quibi
Quibi would be if someone came in 10 years from now and said "if we put a lot more money behind spitting out content using characters and settings from Hollywood IP than we'll obviously be way more popular than a tech company can be!"
Use your own sh*t is one of the best way to build excellent products.
Tesla built something like this for FSD training, they presented many years ago. I never understood why they did productize it. It would have made a brilliant Maps alternative, which country automatically update from Tesla cars on the road. Could live update with speed cameras and road conditions. Like many things they've fallen behind
No Lidar anymore on the 2026 Volvo models ES60 and EX60. See for example: https://www.jalopnik.com/2032555/volvo-ends-luminar-lidar-20...
I love Volvo, am considering buying one in a couple weeks actually, but they're doing nothing interesting in terms of ADAS, as far as I can tell. It seems like they're limited to adaptive cruise control and lane keeping, both of which have been solved problems for more than a decade.
It sounds like they removed Lidar due to supplier issues and availability, not because they're trying to build self-driving cars and have determined they don't need it anymore.
Is lane keeping really a solved problem? Just last year one of my brand new rented cars tried to kill me a few times when I tried it again, and so far not even the simple lane leaving detection mechanism worked properly in any of the tried cars when it was raining.
What problem is it even solving? Keeping my car straight so I can be less attentive on the road?
I get it in the context of driverless but find it nothing but annoying as a driver.
Lane keep keeps your car in the lane so you can stop paying attention just like cruise control keeps you going the same speed so you can stop paying attention… they don’t.
They are just aids that ease fatigue on long trips.
Lane keep is absolutely not a solved problem. Go test drive any of the latest cars from Kia, Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, Ford, etc. They all will literally kill you.
I’d suggest doing some research on software quality. Two years back I was all for buying one (I was considering an EX40), but I got myself into some Facebook groups for owners and was shocked at the dreadful reports of quality of the software and it completely put me off. I got an ID4 instead. Reports about the EX90 have been dreadful. I was very interested, and I still admire their look and build when they drive by - but it killed my enthusiasm to buy one for a few years until they get it right.
Software is pretty solid as of latest release. EX90 is a sleeper pick now because of the bad press being behind the latest software.
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Without Lidar + the terrible quality of tesla onboard cameras.. street view would look terrible. The biggest L of elon's career is the weird commitment to no-lidar. If you've ever driven a Tesla, it gives daily messages "the left side camera is blocked" etc.. cameras+weather don't mix either.
At first I gave him the benefit of the doubt, like that weird decision of Steve Jobs banning Adobe Flash, which ran most of the fun parts of the Internet back then, that ended up spreading HTML5. Now I just think he refused LIDAR on purely aesthetic reasons. The cost is not even that significant compared to the overall cost of a Tesla.
That one was motivated by the need of controlling the app distribution channel, just like they keep the web as a second class citizen in their ecosystem nowadays.
> purely aesthetic reasons
This is huge though.
People aren't setting them on fire during protests, and if an FSD Tesla plows into a farmers market, it might not even make the news.
People hate tech so much that self-driving companies with easy-to-spot cars have had to shut down after just a few mistakes.
Disguising Teslas as plain old regular human-driven cars is a great idea and I wouldn't be surprised if they win the market because of this. Even if they suck at driving.
People aren't setting Teslas on fire? Where do you get that from?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/conormurray/2025/05/01/tesla-pr...
Years ago he called lidar a crutch...
And I agree, it is. Clearly it is theoretically possible without.
But when you can't walk at all, a crutch might be just what you need to get going before you can do it without the crutch!
he didn't refuse it. MobileEye or whoever cut Tesla off because they were using the lidar sensors in a way he didn't approve. From there he got mad and said "no more lidar!"
Assuming what you say is true, are they the only LIDAR vendor?
False. Mobileye never used lidar. Lmao where do you all come up with this
I think Elon announced Tesla was ditching LIDAR in 2019.[0] This was before Mobileye offered LIDAR. Mobileye has used LIDAR from Luminar Technologies around 2022-2025. [1][2] They were developing their own lidar, but cancelled it. [3] They chose Innoviz Technologies as their LIDAR partner going forward for future product lines. [4]
0: https://techcrunch.com/2019/04/22/anyone-relying-on-lidar-is...
1: https://static.mobileye.com/website/corporate/media/radar-li...
2: https://www.luminartech.com/updates/luminar-accelerates-comm...
3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vvg9heQObyQ&t=48s
4: https://ir.innoviz.tech/news-events/press-releases/detail/13...
The original Mobileye EyeQ3 devices that Tesla began installing in their cars in 2013 had only a single forward facing camera. They were very simple devices, only intended to be used for lane keeping. Tesla hacked the devices and pushed them beyond their safe design constraints.
Then that guy got decapitated when his Model S drove under a semi-truck that was crossing the highway and Mobileye terminated the contract. Weirdly, the same fatal edge case occurred 2 more times at least on Tesla's newer hardware.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Tesla_Autopilot_crashe...
They had radar too. No such incidents since going camera only fyi, even on the old autopilot product
Thank you!
Never with the product used by Tesla early on.
https://www.mobileye.com/news/mobileye-to-end-internal-lidar...
Um, yes they did.
No idea if it had any relation to Tesla though.
Did not
> The cost is not even that significant compared to the overall cost of a Tesla.
That’s true now, but when they first debuted they would have doubled the cost of the car.
When Tesla debuted, the cost of batteries made electric cars more like an expensive novelty. The Tesla roadster certainly was fun, but it wasn't a practical car for day-to-day use.
Of course, things have changed.
Had Tesla gone all-in on Lidar, they could have turned the technology into a commodity, they are a trillion dollar company producing a million cars a year. Lidar is already present on cheap robot vacuum cleaners, and we have time-of-flight cameras in smartphones, I don't believe it would have been a problem to equip $50k cars with Lidar.
His stated reason was that he wanted the team focused on the driving problem, not sensor fusion "now you have two problems" problems. People assumed cost was the real reason, but it seems unfair to blame him for what people assumed. Don't get me wrong, I don't like him either, but that's not due to his autonomous driving leadership decisions, it's because of shitting up twitter, shitting up US elections with handouts, shitting up the US government with DOGE, seeking Epstein's "wildest party," DARVO every day, and so much more.
Sensor fusion is an issue, one that is solvable over time and investment in the driving model, but sensor-can't-see-anything is a show stopper.
Having a self-driving solution that can be totally turned off with a speck of mud, heavy rain, morning dew, bright sunlight at dawn and dusk.. you can't engineer your way out of sensor-blindness.
I don't want a solution that is available to use 98% of the time, I want a solution that is always-available and can't be blinded by a bad lighting condition.
I think he did it because his solution always used the crutch of "FSD Not Available, Right hand Camera is Blocked" messaging and "Driver Supervision" as the backstop to any failure anywhere in the stack. Waymo had no choice but to solve the expensive problem of "Always Available and Safe" and work backwards on price.
If you have mud on a camera, you can't drive it either way. Lidar or not. The way to actually solve these issues is to have way more cameras for redundancy / self cleaning etc, not other sensors.
> Waymo had no choice but to solve the expensive problem of "Always Available and Safe"
And it's still not clear whether they are using a fallback driving stack for a situation where one of non-essential (i.e. non-camera (1)) sensors is degraded. I haven't seen Waymo clearly stating capabilities of their self-driving stack in this regard. On the other hand, there are such things as washer fluid and high dynamic range cameras.
(1) You can't drive in a city if you can't see the light emitted by traffic lights, which neither lidar nor radar can do.
Hence why both together make the solution waymo chose. The proof is in the pudding, Waymo's have been driving millions of miles without any intervention. Tesla requires safety drivers. I would never trust the FSD on my model 3 to be even nearly perfect all the time.
Lidar also gives you the ability to see through fog and as it scans, see the depth needed to nearly always understand what object is in front of them.
My Model 3 shows "degraded" or "unavailable" about 2% of the time i'm driving around populated areas. Zero chance it will ever be truly FSD capable, no matter the software improvements. It'll still be unavailable because the cameras are blinded/blocked/unable to process the scene because it can't see the scene.
While you're right, washer fluid works usually on the windshield, it doesn't on the side cameras, and yea hdr could improve things, it won't improve depth perception, and this will never be installed on my model 3..
Lidar contributes the data most needed to handle the millions of edge cases that exist. With both camera and lidar contributing the data they are both the best at collecting, the risk of the very worst type of accidents is greatly reduced.
I don't see these stats https://waymo.com/safety/impact/ happening for tesla anytime soon.
Waymo had safety drivers for a long time. And still have safety drivers to this day when they roll out a new city. You wouldn't have known that because no one was paying attention to this stuff back then.
> without any intervention
but with occasional remote guidance (Waymo doesn't seem to disclose statistics of that). In some cases remote guidance includes placing waypoints[1].
> Lidar also gives you the ability to see through fog and as it scans
Nah. Lidar isn't much better in fog than cameras. If I'm not mistaken, fog, rain, smoke, snow scatter IR light approximately the same as visible light. The lidar beam needs to travel twice the distance and its power is limited by eye-safety concerns.
> FSD on my model 3 to be even nearly perfect all the time
It doesn't need to be perfect. It needs to not hit things, cars and pedestrians too hard and too often, while mostly obeying traffic rules. Waymo has quite a few complains about their cars' behavior[2], but they manage just fine.
[1] third video in https://waymo.com/blog/2024/05/fleet-response
Waymo also had safety drivers for years.
All you really need is "drive slower if you can't see (because rain, fog, or degraded cameras), or you're in an area where children might run out into the road"
LIDAR is notoriously easy to blind, what are you on about? Bonus meme: LIDAR blinds you(r iPhone camera)!
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Yeah its absurd. As a Tesla driver, I have to say the autopilot model really does feel like what someone who's never driven a car before thinks it's like.
Using vision only is so ignorant of what driving is all about: sound, vibration, vision, heat, cold...these are all clues on road condition. If the car isn't feeling all these things as part of the model, you're handicapping it. In a brilliant way Lidar is the missing piece of information a car needs without relying on multiple sensors, it's probably superior to what a human can do, where as vision only is clearly inferior.
The inputs to FSD are:
Source: https://youtu.be/LFh9GAzHg1c?t=5717 cameras x 36fps x 5Mpx x 30s 48kHz audio Nav maps and route for next few miles 100Hz kinematics (speed, IMU, odometry, etc)So if they’re already “fusioning” all these things, why would LIDAR be any different?
Tesla went nothing-but-nets (making fusion easy) and Chinese LIDAR became cheap around 2023, but monocular depth estimation was spectacularly good by 2021. By the time unit cost and integration effort came down, LIDAR had very little to offer a vision stack that no longer struggled to perceive the 3D world around it.
Also, integration effort went down but it never disappeared. Meanwhile, opportunity cost skyrocketed when vision started working. Which layers would you carve resources away from to make room? How far back would you be willing to send the training + validation schedule to accommodate the change? If you saw your vision-only stack take off and blow past human performance on the march of 9s, would you land the plane just because red paint became available and you wanted to paint it red?
I wouldn't completely discount ego either, but IMO there's more ego in the "LIDAR is necessary" case than the "LIDAR isn't necessary" at this point. FWIW, I used to be an outspoken LIDAR-head before 2021 when monocular depth estimation became a solved problem. It was funny watching everyone around me convert in the opposite direction at around the same time, probably driven by politics. I get it, I hate Elon's politics too, I just try very hard to keep his shitty behavior from influencing my opinions on machine learning.
> but monocular depth estimation was spectacularly good by 2021
It's still rather weak and true monocular depth estimation really wasn't spectacularly anything in 2021. It's fundamentally ill posed and any priors you use to get around that will come to bite you in the long tail of things some driver will encounter on the road.
The way it got good is by using camera overlap in space and over time while in motion to figure out metric depth over the entire image. Which is, humorously enough, sensor fusion.
It was spectacularly good before 2021, 2021 is just when I noticed that it had become spectacularly good. 7.5 billion miles later, this appears to have been the correct call.
What are the techniques (and the papers thereof) that you consider to be spectacularly good before 2021 for depth estimation, monocular or not?
I do some tangent work from this field for applications in robotics, and I would consider (metric) depth estimation (and 3D reconstruction) starting to be solved only by 2025 thanks to a few select labs.
Car vision has some domain specificity (high similarity images from adjacent timestamps, relatively simpler priors, etc) that helps, indeed.
depth estimation is but one part of the problem— atmospheric and other conditions which blind optical visible spectrum sensors, lack of ambient (sunlight) and more. lidar simply outperforms (performs at all?) in these conditions. and provides hardware back distance maps, not software calculated estimation
Lidar fails worse than cameras in nearly all those conditions. There are plenty of videos of Tesla's vision-only approach seeing obstacles far before a human possibly could in all those conditions on real customer cars. Many are on the old hardware with far worse cameras
Interesting, got any links? Sounds completely unbelievable, eyes are far superior to the shitty cameras Tesla has on their cars.
There's a misconception that what people see and what the camera sees is similar. Not true at all. One day when it's raining or foggy, have some record the driving, through the windshield. You'll be very surprised. Even what the camera displays on the screen isn't what it's actually "seeing".
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Yea.. not holding my breath on links to superman tesla cameras performing better than eyes
It doesn't solve the "Coyote paints tunnel on rock" problem though.
IIRC, that was only ever a problem for the coyote, though.
Source: not a computer vision engineer, but a childhood consumer of looney toons cartoons.
Time for a car company to call itself "ACME" and the first model the "Road Runner".
Always thought the case was for sensor redundancy and data variety - the stuff that throws off monocular depth estimation might not throw off a lidar or radar.
Monocular depth estimation can be fooled by adversarial images, or just scenes outside of its distribution. It's a validation nightmare and a joke for high reliability.
It isn't monocular though. A Tesla has 2 front-facing cameras, narrow and wide-angle. Beyond that, it is only neural nets at this point, so depth estimation isn't directly used; it is likely part of the neural net, but only the useful distilled elements.
I never said it was. I was using it as a lower bound for what was possible.
Fog, heavy rain, heavy snow, people running between cars or from an obstructed view…
None of these technologies can ever be 100%, so we’re basically accepting a level of needless death.
Musk has even shrugged off FSD related deaths as, “progress”.
Humans: 70 deaths in 7 billion miles
FSD: 2 deaths in 7 billion miles
Looks like FSD saves lives by a margin so fat it can probably survive most statistical games.
How many of the 70 human accidents would be adequately explained by controlling for speed, alcohol, wanton inattention, etc? (The first two alone reduce it by 70%)
No customer would turn on FSD on an icy road, or on country lanes in the UK which are one lane but run in both directions; it's much harder to have a passenger fatality in stop-start traffic jams in downtown US cities.
Even if those numbers are genuine (2 vs 70) I wouldn't consider it apples-for-apples.
Public information campaigns and proper policing have a role to play in car safety, if that's the stated goal we don't necessarily need to sink billions into researching self driving
Is that the official Tesla stat? I've heard of way more Tesla fatalities than that..
There are a sizeable number of deaths associated with the abuse of Tesla’s adaptive cruise control with lane cantering (publicly marketed as “autopilot”). Such features are commonplace on many new cars and it is unclear whether Tesla is an outlier, because no one is interested in obsessively researching cruise control abuse among other brands.
There are two deaths associated with FSD.
I don't know what he's on about. Here's a better list:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Tesla_Autopilot_crashe...
Good ole Autopilot vs FSD post. You would think people on Hacker News would be better informed. Autopilot is just lane keep and adaptive cruise control. Basically what every other car has at this point.
"MacOS Tahoe has these cool features". "Yea but what about this wikipedia article on System 1. Look it has these issues."
That's how you come across
Autopilot is the shitty lane assist. FSD is the SOTA neural net.
Your link agrees with me:
> two that NHTSA's Office of Defect Investigations determined as happening during the engagement of Full Self-Driving (FSD) after 2022.
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This is absolutely a Musk defender. FSD and Tesla related deaths are much higher.
Autopilot is the shitty lane assist. FSD is the SOTA neural net.
Your link agrees with me:
> 2 fatalities involving the use of FSD
Tesla sales are dead across the world. Cybertruck is a failure. Chinese EVs are demonstrably better.
No one wants these crappy cars anymore.
Isn't there a great deal of gaming going on with the car disengaging FSD milliseconds before crashing? Voila, no "full" "self" driving accident; just another human failing [*]!
[*] Failing to solve the impossible situation FSD dropped them into, that is.
Nope. NHTSA's criteria for reporting is active-within-30-seconds.
https://www.nhtsa.gov/laws-regulations/standing-general-orde...
If there's gamesmanship going on, I'd expect the antifan site linked below to have different numbers, but it agrees with the 2 deaths figure for FSD.
Better than I expected. So this was 3 days ago, is this for all previously models or is there a cut off date here?
I quickly googled Lidar limitations, and this article came up:
https://www.yellowscan.com/knowledge/how-weather-really-affe...
Seeing how its by a lidar vendor, I don't think they're biased against it. It seems Lidar is not a panacea - it struggles with heavy rain, snow, much more than cameras do and is affected by cold weather or any contamination on the sensor.
So lidar will only get you so far. I'm far more interested in mmwave radar, which while much worse in spatial resolution, isn't affected by light conditions, weather, can directly measure stuff on the thing its illuminating, like material properties, the speed its moving, the thickness.
Fun fact: mmWave based presence sensors can measure your hearbeat, as the micro-movements show up as a frequency component. So I'd guess it would have a very good chance to detect a human.
I'm pretty sure even with much more rudimentary processing, it'll be able to tell if its looking at a living being.
By the way: what happened to the idea that self-driving cars will be able to talk to each other and combine each other's sensor data, so if there are multiple ones looking at the same spot, you'd get a much improved chance of not making a mistake.
Lidar is a moot point. You can't drive with just Lidar, no matter what. That's what people don't understand. The most common one I hear: "What if the camera gets mud on it", ok then you have to get out and clean it, or it needs an auto cleaning system.
Maybe vision-only can work with much better cameras, with a wider spectrum (so they can see thru fog, for example), and self-cleaning/zero upkeep (so you don't have to pull over to wipe a speck of mud from them). Nevertheless, LIDAR still seems like the best choice overall.
Autopilot hasn’t been updated in years and is nothing like FSD. FSD does use all of those cues.
I misspoke, i'm using Hardware 3 FSD.
I have HW3, but FSD reliably disengages at this time of year with sunrise and sunset during commute hours.
Yep, and won't activate until any morning dew is off the sensors.. or when it rains too hard.. or if it's blinded by a shiny building/window/vehicle.
I will never trust 2d camera-only, it can be covered or blocked physically and when it happens FSD fails.
As cheap as LIDAR has gotten, adding it to every new tesla seems to be the best way out of this idiotic position. Sadly I think Elon got bored with cars and moved on.
If the camera is covered or blocked, you can't drive plain and simple, as you can't drive a car (at least on Earth) with just Lidar. The roads are made for eyes. Maybe on Rocky's homeworld you can have a Lidar only system for traveling.
This will considerably skew the statistics, a low sun dramatically increases accident rates on humans too.
FSD14 on hw4 does not. Its dynamic range is equivalent or better than human.
>>The biggest L of elon's career is the weird commitment to no-lidar.
I thought it was the Nazi salutes on stage and backing neo-nazi groups everywhere around the world, but you know, I guess the lidar thing too.
maybe it's better to say it was the biggest L of his engineering career instead of his political career
From the perspective of viewing FSD as an engineering problem that needs solving I tend to think Elon is on to something with the camera-only approach – although I would agree the current hardware has problems with weather, etc.
The issue with lidar is that many of the difficult edge-cases of FSD are all visible-light vision problems. Lidar might be able to tell you there's a car up front, but it can't tell you that the car has it's hazard lights on and a flat tire. Lidar might see a human shaped thing in the road, but it cannot tell whether it's a mannequin leaning against a bin or a human about to cross the road.
Lidar gets you most of the way there when it comes to spatial awareness on the road, but you need cameras for most of the edge-cases because cameras provide the color data needed to understand the world.
You could never have FSD with just lidar, but you could have FSD with just cameras if you can overcome all of the hardware and software challenges with accurate 3D perception.
Given Lidar adds cost and complexity, and most edge cases in FSD are camera problems, I think camera-only probably helps to force engineers to focus their efforts in the right place rather than hitting bottlenecks from over depending on Lidar data. This isn't an argument for camera-only FSD, but from Tesla's perspective it does down costs and allows them to continue to produce appealing cars – which is obviously important if you're coming at FSD from the perspective of an auto marker trying to sell cars.
Finally, adding lidar as a redundancy once you've "solved" FSD with cameras isn't impossible. I personally suspect Tesla will eventually do this with their robotaxis.
That said, I have no real experience with self-driving cars. I've only worked on vision problems and while lidar is great if you need to measure distances and not hit things, it's the wrong tool if you need to comprehend the world around you.
This is so wild to read when Waymo is currently doing like 500,000 paid rides every week, all over the country, with no one in the driver's seat. Meanwhile Tesla seems to have a handful of robotaxis in Austin, and it's unclear if any of them are actually driverless.
But the Tesla engineers are "in the right place rather than hitting bottlenecks from over depending on Lidar data"? What?
Tesla has driven 7.5B autonomous miles to Waymo's 0.2B, but yes, Waymo looks like they are ahead when you stratify the statistics according to the ass-in-driver-seat variable and neglect the stratum that makes Tesla look good.
The real question is whether doing so is smart or dumb. Is Tesla hiding big show-stopper problems that will prevent them from scaling without a safety driver? Or are the big safety problems solved and they are just finishing the Robotaxi assembly line that will crank out more vertically-integrated purpose-designed cars than Waymo's entire fleet every day before lunch?
Tesla's also been involved in WAY more accidents than Waymo - and has tried to silence those people, claim FSD wasn't active, etc.
What good is a huge fleet of Robotaxis if no one will trust them? I won't ever set foot in a Robotaxi, as long as Elon is involved.
waymo just hit it's first pedestrian, ever. It did it at a speed of 6mph and it was estimated a human would have hit the kid at 14mph (it was going 17mph when a small child jumped out in front of it from behind a black suv.
First pedestrian struck. That's crazy.
Tesla just disengages fsd anytime a sensor is slightly blocked/covered/blinded.. waymo out here doing fsd 100% of the time and basically never hurts anyone.
I don't get the tesla/elon love here, i like my model 3 but it's never going to get real fsd, and that sucks, elon also lies about the roadmap, timing, etc. I bet the roadster is canceled now. Why do people like inferior sensors and autistic hitler?
Waymos disengage and get tele operated too?
Not really. Waymos can’t be driven remotely, their remote operators can give the car directions, e.g. “use this lane”, and then the autonomous system controls the vehicle to execute those directions.
I’m sure latency and connectivity is too much of an risk to do it any other way.
The only Waymos driven by a human are the ones with human drivers physically in the car
There's more Tesla's on the road than Waymo's by several orders of magnitude. Additionally the types of roads and conditions Tesla's drive under is completely incomparable to Waymo.
Yes that was accounted for above, but this isn't autonomous apples to apples
semi autonomous
I wasn't arguing Tesla is ahead of Waymo? Nor do I think they are. All I was arguing was that it makes sense from the perspective of a consumer automobile maker to not use lidar.
I don't think Tesla is that far behind Waymo though given Waymo has had a significant head start, the fact Waymo has always been a taxi-first product, and given they're using significantly more expensive tech than Tesla is.
Additionally, it's not like this is a lidar vs cameras debate. Waymo also uses and needs cameras for FSD for the reasons I mentioned, but they supplement their robotaxis with lidar for accuracy and redundancy.
My guess is that Tesla will experiment with lidar on their robotaxis this year because design decisions should differ from those of a consumer automobile. But I could be wrong because if Tesla wants FSD to work well on visually appealing and affordable consumer vehicles then they'll probably have to solve some of the additional challenges with with a camera-only FSD system. I think it will depend on how much Elon decides Tesla needs to pivot into robotaxis.
Either way, what is undebatable is that you can't drive with lidar only. If the weather is so bad that cameras are useless then Waymos are also useless.
What causes LiDAR to fail harder than normal cameras in bad weather conditions? I understand that normal LiDAR algorithms assume the direct paths from light source to object to camera pixel, while a mist will scatter part of the light, but it would seem like this can be addressed in the pixel depth estimation algorithm that combines the complex amplitudes at the different LiDAR frequencies.
I understand that small lens sizes mean that falling droplets can obstruct the view behind the droplet, while larger lens sizes can more easily see beyond the droplet.
I seldom see discussion of the exact failure modes for specific weather conditions. Even if larger lenses are selected the light source should use similar lens dimensions. Independent modulation of multiple light sources could also dramatically increase the gained information from each single LiDAR sensor.
Do self-driving camera systems (conventional and LiDAR) use variable or fixed tilt lenses? Normal camera systems have the focal plane perpendicular to the viewing direction, but for roads it might be more interesting to have a large swath of the horizontal road in focus. At least having 1 front facing camera with a horizontal road in focus may prove highly beneficial.
To a certain extend an FSD system predicts the best course of action. When different courses of action have similar logits of expected fitness for the next best course of action, we can speak of doubt. With RMAD we can figure out which features or what facets of input or which part of the view is causing the doubt.
A camera has motion blur (unless you can strobe the illumination source, but in daytime the sun is very hard to outshine), it would seem like an interesting experiment to:
1. identify in real time which doubts have the most significant influence on the determination of best course of action
2. have a camera that can track an object to eliminate motion blur but still enjoy optimal lighting (under the sun, or at night), just like our eyes can rotate
3. rerun the best course of action prediction and feed back this information to the company, so it can figure out the cost-benefit of adding a free tracking camera dedicated to eliminating doubts caused by motion blur.
Maybe they were focusing on a real world use that basically requires AI, but not LLMs.
Tesla claimed that all their "real world" recording would give them a moat on FSD.
Waymo is showing that a) you need to be able to incorporate stuff that isn't "real" when training, and b) you get a lot more information from alternate sensors to visible spectrum only.
>> Suddenly all this focus on world models by Deep mind starts to make sense.
The apparent applicability to Waymo is incidental, more likely because a few millions+ were spent on Genie and they have to do something with it. DeepMind started to train "world models" because that's the current overhyped buzzword in the industry. First it was "natural language understanding" and "question answering" back in the days of old BERT, then it was "agentic", then "reasoning", now it's "world models", next years it's going to be "emotions" or "social intelligence" or some other anthropomorphic, over-drawn neologism. If you follow a few AI accounts on social media you really can't miss when those things suddenly start trending, then pretty much die out and only a few stragglers still try to publish papers on them because they failed to get the memo that we're now all running behind the Next Big Thing™.
notice that all these buzzwords you give actually correspond to real advances in the field. All of these were improvements on something existing, not a big revolution for sure, but definitely measurable improvements.
> Suddenly all this focus on world models by Deep mind starts to make sense
Google's been thinking about world models since at least 2018: https://arxiv.org/abs/1803.10122
FWIW I understood GP to mean that it suddenly makes sense to them, not that there’s been a sudden focus shift at google.
I just listened to a fantastic multi-hour Acquired (https://www.acquired.fm/) podcast episode on Google and AI that talks about the history of Google and AI and all the ways they have been using it since 2012. It's really fascinating. You can forgive them for not focusing on Reader or any of their other properties when you realize they were pulling in hundreds of billions of dollars of value by making big bets in AI and incorporating it into their core business.
So is this a model baked into the VLLM layer? Or a scaffold that the agent sits in for testing?
If the former then it’s relevant to the broader discourse on LLM generality. If the latter, then it seems less relevant to chatbots and business agents.
Edit to add: this is not part of the model, it’s in a separate pillar (Simulator vs Driver). More at https://waymo.com/blog/2025/12/demonstrably-safe-ai-for-auto....
I always understood this to be why Tesla started working on humanoid robots
Pretty much. They banked on "if we can solve FSD, we can partially solve humanoid robot autonomy, because both are robots operating in poorly structured real world environments".
They started working on humanoid robots because Musk always has to have the next moonshot, trillion-dollar idea to promise "in 3 years" to keep the stock price high.
As soon as Waymo's massive robotaxi lead became undeniable, he pivoted to from robotaxis to humanoid robots.
Yeah, that and running Grok on a trillion GPUs in space lol
I don't want a humanoid robot. I want a purpose built robot.
Obviously both will exist and compete with each other on the margins. The thing to appreciate is that our physical world is already built like an API for adult humans. Swinging doors, stairs, cupboards, benchtops. If you want a robot to traverse the space and be useful for more than one task, the humanoid form makes sense.
The key question is whether general purpose robots can outcompete on sheer economies of scale alone.
It's called a dishwasher, washing machine, and dryer. Plus like robomowers, vaccums etc.
I mean, I would take a robot to handle all of my housework.
Purpose built, that probably takes the form of a humanoid robot since all of tasks it needs to do were previously designed for humanoids.
Vacuuming and mopping are not inherently "designed" for humans.
Dusting with a single extensible and multiple degrees of freedom arm would be much more maneuverable than a human arm.
Loading and unloading washing machines or dryers or doign the same for dishes and cutlery in a dishwasher is not inherently designed for humans.
If anything, selling an integrated "housekeeping" system that fits into an existing laundry and combines features would be a much better approach.
The drop in demand for Tesla's clapped out model range would have meant embarrassing factory closures, so now they're being closed to start manufacturing a completely different product. Bait and switch for Tesla investors.
I wonder how long they'll be closed for "modifications" and whether the Optimus Prime robot factories will go into production before the "Trump Kennedy Center" is reopened after its "renovations".
It's so they can stick a Tesla logo on a bunch of chinese tech and call it innovation.
Also known as a monopoly. This should terrify us all.
Monopolies are essentially 100% horizontal integration. Vertical integration is a completely different concept.
No, it's known as vertical integration, which is legally permitted by default.
So for the record, with this realization you're 3+ years behind Tesla.>I've never really thought of Waymo as a robot in the same way as e.g. a Boston Dynamics humanoid, but of course it is a robot of sorts.Aren't they still using safety drivers or safety follow cars and in fewer cities? Seems Tesla is pretty far behind.
What do you think I said that you're contradicting?
IMO the presence of safety chase vehicles is just a sensible "as low as reasonably achievable" measure during the early rollout. I'm not sure that can (fairly) be used as a point against them.
I'm comfortably with Tesla sparing no expense for safety, since I think we all (including Tesla) understand that this isn't the ultimate implementation. In fact, I think it would be a scandal if Tesla failed to do exactly that.
Damned if you do and damned if you don't, apparently.
I don't know if Tesla claiming they're doing something carries weight anymore.
Setting aside the anti-Tesla bias, none of what I said relies on Tesla claims. The "chase vehicle" claims are all based on third-party accounts from actual rideshare customers.
> IMO the presence of safety chase vehicles is just a sensible "as low as reasonably achievable" measure during the early rollout. I'm not sure that can (fairly) be used as a point against them.
Only if you're comparing them to another company, which you seem to be. So yes, yes it can.
Seriously, the amount of sheer cope here is insane. Waymo is doing the thing. Tesla is not. If Tesla were capable of doing it, they would be. But they're not.
It really is as simple as that and no amount of random facts you may bring up will change the reality. Waymo is doing the thing.
>Waymo is doing the thing.
This worldview is overly simplistic.
Waymo has (very shrewdly, for prospective investors at least) executed a strategy that most quickly scales to 0.1% of the population. Unfortunately it doesn't scale further. The cars are too costly and the mapping is too costly. There is no workable plan for significant scale from Waymo.
Tesla is executing the strategy that most quickly scales to 100% of the population.
> Tesla is executing the strategy that most quickly scales to 100% of the population.
So, uh… where is this “scale” then? This “strategy” has been bandied about for better part of a decade. Why are they still in a tiny geofence in Austin with chase cars?
Waymo is doing it right now. Half a million rides every week, expansion to a dozen new cities. Tesla does a few hundred in a tiny area.
Scale is assessed by looking at concrete numbers, not by “strategies” that haven’t materialized for a decade.
> most quickly scales to 0.1% of the population. Unfortunately it doesn't scale further
Data suggests that they’re already available to ~2% of the US population.
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Practically ALL course introductory materials that regard robotics and AI that I've seen began with "you might imagine a talking bipedal humanoid when you hear the word `robot`, but perhaps the most commonplace robot that you have seen is a vending machine", with the illustration of a typical 80s-90s outdoor soda vendor with no apparent moving parts.
So "maybe cars are a bit of robots too" is more like 30-50 years behind the time.
Grok/xAI is a joke at this point. A true money pit without any hopes for a serious revenue stream.
They should be bought by a rocket company. Then they would stand a chance.
Which is why it's embarrassing how much worse Gemini is at searching the web for grounding information, and how incredibly bad gemini cli is.
Not my experience in either of those areas.
Internal firewalls and poor management means that the vast majority of integration opportunities are missed.
The flywheel is starting to spin......
> I've never really thought of Waymo as a robot in the same way as e.g. a Boston Dynamics humanoid, but of course it is a robot of sorts.
I view Tesla also more as a robot company than anything else.
What an upsetting comment. I'm glad you came around but what did you think was going to be effective before you came around to world models?
"Waymo as a robot in the same way"
Erm, a dishwasher, washing machine, automated vacuum can be considered robots. Im confused as to this obsession of the term - there are many robots that already exist. Robotics have been involved in the production of cars for decades.
......
I think the (gray) line is the degree of autonomy. My washing machine makes very small, predictable decisions, while a Waymo has to manage uncertainty most of the time.
Its irrelevant. A robot is a robot.
Dictionary def: "a machine controlled by a computer that is used to perform jobs automatically."
A robot is a robot, and a human is a creature that won't necessarily agree with another human on what the definition of a word is. Dictionaries are also written by humans and don't necessarily reflect the current consensus, especially on terms where people's understanding might evolve over time as technology changes.
Even if that definition were universally agreed on l upon though, that's not really enough to understand what the parent comment was saying. Being a robot "in the same way" as something else is even less objective. Humans are humans, but they're also mammals; is a human a mammal "in the same way" as a mouse? Most humans probably have a very different view of the world than most mice, and the parent comment was specifically addressing the question of whether it makes sense for an autonomous car to model the world the same way as other robots or not. I don't see how you can dismiss this as "irrelevant" because both humans and mice are mammals (or even animals; there's no shortage of classifications out there) unless you're completely having a different conversation than the person you responded to. You're not necessarily wrong because of that, but you're making a pretty significant misjudgment if you think that's helpful to them or to anyone else involved in the ongoing conversation.
No one is denying that robots existed already (but I would hardly call a dishwasher a robot FWIW)
But in my mind a waymo was always a "car with sensors", but more recently (especially having recently used them a bunch in California recently) I've come to think of them truly as robots.
TIL fuel injectors are robots. Probably my ceiling lights too.
Maybe we need to nitpick about what a job is exactly? Or we could agree to call Waymos (semi)autonomous robots?
In the same way people online have argued helicopters are flying cars, it doesn't capture what most people mean when they use the word "robot", anymore than helicopters are what people have in mind when they mention flying cars.
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>or grok's porn
I know it’s gross, but I would not discount this. Remember why Blu-ray won over HDDVD? I know it won for many other technical reasons, but I think there are a few historical examples of sexual content being a big competitive advantage.
It's a 3500lb robot that can kill you.
Boston Robotics is working on a smaller robot that can kill you.
Anduril is working on even smaller robots that can kill you.
The future sucks.
and they're all controlled by (poorly compensated) humans anyway [1] [2]
[1] https://www.wsj.com/tech/personal-tech/i-tried-the-robot-tha...
[2] https://futurism.com/advanced-transport/waymos-controlled-wo...
They couldn't even make burger flipping robots work and are paying fast food workers $20/hr in California.
If that doesn't make it obvious what they can and cannot do then I can't respect the tranche of "hackers" who blindly cheer on this unchecked corporate dystopian nightmare.
The vertical integration argument should apply to Grok. They have Tesla driving data (probably much more data than Waymo), Twitter data, plus Tesla/SpaceX manufacturing data. When/if Optimus starts on the production line, they'll have that data too. You could argue they haven't figured out how to take advantage of it, but the potential is definitely there.
Agreed. Should they achieve Google level integration, we will all make sure they are featured in our commentary. Their true potential is surely just around the corner...
"Tesla has more data than Waymo" is some of the lamest cope ever. Tesla does not have more video than Google! That's crazy! People who repeat this are crazy! If there was a massive flow of video from Tesla cars to Tesla HQ that would have observable side effects.
"More video" (gigabytes) is a straw man.
The key metric is more unusual situations. That scales with miles driven, not gigabytes. With onboard inference the car simply logs anything 'unusual' (low confidence) to selectively upload those needle-in-a-haystack rare events.
But somehow google fails to execute. Gemini is useless for programming and I don’t think even bother to use it as chat app. Claude code + gpt 5.2 xhigh for coding and gpt as chat app are really the only ones that are worth it(price and time wise)
I've recently switched to Claude for chat. GPT 5.2 feels very engagement-maxxed for me, like I'm reading a bad LinkedIn post. Claude does a tiny bit of this too, but an order of magnitude less in my experience. I never thought I'd switch from ChatGPT, but there is only so much "here's the brutal truth, it's not x it's y" I can take.
GPT likes to argue, and most of its arguments are straw man arguments, usually conflating priors. It's ... exhausting; akin to arguing on the internet. (What am I even saying, here!?) Claude's a lot less of that. I don't know if tracks discussion/conversation better; but, for damn sure, it's got way less verbal diarrhea than GPT.
Yes, GPT5-series thinking models are extremely pedantic and tedious. Any conversation with them is derailed because they start nitpicking something random.
But Codex/5.2 was substantially more effective than Claude at debugging complex C++ bugs until around Fall, when I was writing a lot more code.
I find Gemini 3 useless. It has regressed on hallucinations from Gemini 2.5, to the point where its output is no better than a random token stream despite all its benchmark outperformance. I would use Gemini 2.5 to help write papers and all, can't see to use Gemini 3 for anything. Gemini CLI also is very non-compliant and crazy.
Experiencing the same. It seems Anthropic’s human-focused design choices are becoming a differentiator.
To me ChatGPT seems smarter and knows more. That’s why I use it. Even Claude rates gpt better for knowledge answers. Not sure if that itself is any indication. Claude seems superficial unless you hammer it to generate a good answer.
Gemini is by far the best UI/UX designer model. Codex seems to the worst: it'll build something awkward and ugly, then Gemini will take 30-60 seconds to make it look like something that would have won a design award a couple years ago.
Gemini works well enough in Search and in Meet. And it's baked into the products so it's dead simple to use.
I don't think Google is targeting developers with their AI, they are targeting their product's users.
It is a bit mind boggling how behind they were considering they invented transformers and were also sitting on the best set of training data in the world, but they've caught up quite a bit. They still lag behind in coding, but I've found Gemini to be pretty good at more general knowledge tasks. Flash 3 in particular is much better than anything of comparable price and speed from OpenAI or Anthropic.
Yesterday GPT 5.2 wrote a python function for me that had the import in the middle of the code, for no reason. (It was a simple import of requests module in a REST client...) Claude I agree is a lot better for backend,Gemini is very good for frontend
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