108 comments
Take heed, Americaneez -- and prepare, because this may be in your future sooner than prediction markets would have you believe [1].
LoRa mesh networking seems like the runner-up, but vague reports indicate (Meshtastic) doesn't handle crowds well.
I think Bitchat can use Meshtastic, so a LoRa radio paired with a phone could be a base for not just texting individuals, but community messaging.
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Does anyone remember yik-yak? It wasn't anonymous and resilient like briar, but it was great in its time to discover people near-by and start chatting.
Does anyone if briar relays traffic? like if at least one person in a wifi network has briar and they also connect by bluetooth to another person within an adjacent wifi network, does it relay messages from one end of the city to the other over dozens of devices?
No they sadly don't have that, and that's the major issue of connectivity. All chat recipients have to be online/reachable to receive your messages, which is okay, but useless in mobile environments where you can't afford that constant traffic.
The broadcast type channels though are what the article talks about, they are great for off the grid and mesh environments.
Relaying and scattering traffic across neighboring peers (and handshakes via multicast DNS, for example) would fix a lot of the issues you'll get with Briar, but I guess that would imply a refactor of the codebase.
For these types of NAT breaking issues, a lot of protocols rely on STUN/TURN/TURTLE routing.
For my experimental software router I'm relying on broken firewall deep packet inspection, so I'm using exfil / smuggling protocols. Currently still works, according to my local setup of the great firewall (it's source leak was legit btw).
Jodel is a successor to yik-yak.
I have Briar, but never had anyone to use it with. As an emergency text messaging tool, I guess it can be used, but not for any media transfer. The picture quality is abysmal. I also tried using it to sync some notes across devices, looking for a good use case of it all, but there was also some issue there. I believe once you created a "forum" you can no longer delete them. The desktop app is very slow. Sometimes had to wait for 10-20s for it to do something. I guess it is really just an emergency/offline text message tool.
A good use of briar is having it on your phone already so that during a natural disaster you can connect with others that already have it at community relief spots. Keep it just in case and it will come in clutch when you need it most!
Briar comes with ways of sharing it offline, so enough for one person to have it.
Most likely how they got it in Iran, as I doubt that critical mass of people had it installed in advance. Most likely doesn't work on iPhones though - no sideloading.
>> "The adversary has a limited ability to persuade users to trust the adversary’s agents - thus the number of social connections between the adversary’s agents and the rest of the network is limited." [1]
This assumption seems risky.
Is this actually true? Is anyone in Iran using Briar?
Just the layout seems so awful. As if noboy ever optimised this for real people.
What about Jack Dorsey's Bitchat . Could be useful in india (especially Kashmir) where govt shut down internet during protest
Could be useful in Bangladesh and Baluchistan too.
Bitchat seems like a good solution. It will be even more effective once Bluetooth 6 becomes more widespread in a year or two.
Dude.
Back in 2014 when briar or something similar came up, we found the app.needed to signed in "online" first then it could be used offline.
There were apps used in 2019 but it wasnt enough.
The government "banned" 14 appps including element "because use by terrorists" meant anyone using element after the ban got a loud knock on the door by the stazi with 100-300 personnel, fully ready to engage in battle.
Have seen horror stories.
They used isp data to locate homes where element was used and then staked them out and made a big show of attacking at night.
Then the usual. Phones are confiscated and literal spyware installed.
Why are people downvoting him? He's right (even though if his dream for "Azad" Kashmir came true, it would mean my family is Kishtwar would probably have to leave for Punjab or Himachal with only the clothes on their backs, but the current status quo means he might be detained indefinetly as well) - the DoT, Home Ministry, and State STFs have been rolling out fusions centers since the mid-2010s [0].
The rules are much more strict/draconian in JK [1]
[0] - https://www.mha.gov.in/sites/default/files/AdvNATGRIDCOT_151...
[1] - https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/centre-blocks-14-mobi...
Wait really? Was this only in Kashmir? I've had Element on my laptop for years.
yep. only restricted in kashmir
I'm not sure so many Iranians have $1000 iphones to use hipster bitchat; cheaper android clients are more the norm.
While bitchat was originally iOS only during release, they released the Android version shortly after https://bitchat.free/ (scroll down)
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"Raliv, Tsaliv ya Galiv" didn't need the internet or fancy mesh networking - rabble-rousing Friday mosque-sessions were sufficient for ethnociding the native population over the course of many centuries.
When I tested all the p2p messengers I could get my hands on for Android and iOS about two years back, the only one that worked at all without having a router around was Briar. Glad to see it helping people.
I think meshtastic would be a lot more performant in mesh scenarios due to the added range of LoRa. But of course it's special hardware and thus suspicious during an insurrection. And probably just not available.
I doubt this will actually work though except in the densest city.
Meshtastic also struggles with high density and high traffic networks. Some modifications can be made to work better, but with the default settings it really grinds to a halt, and modifying the settings to be better suited requires some expertise and foresight. It works amazingly in off grid, relatively sparse networks, but it's got some major limitations.
Whoa, I was just mentioning in another post how I have my family member install bitchat just in case for emergencies. This is a very interesting alternative. With a travel router, I can significantly expand the chat radius compared to bitchat's purely BLE approach.
Edit: Boo, no iOS app
Boo, native apps.
If it's not native then we need to give powerful Bluetooth capabilities to web pages which isn't very good.
People said the same thing about allowing the browser to trigger the microphone and the camera.
Use sane browser and or OS inherited permissions, and sane permission-promoting and gating,
and it’s a non-issue.
(Have you seen the prompts for Location, Microphone, WebUSB, and other “scary” features in the browser?
There’s really not much room for misinterpretation!)
Just the default web-layout shown here is ... awful. How can people use that? That design is like 1990 ... but worse.
What's wrong with it?
I guess too many links at the beginning, but other than that it looks like your average website, just RTL.
I'm curious about the iOS situation
I doubt iOS has a large market share in Iran.
Also, for something like this you don't want a platform that requires you to essentially use the App Store and nothing else.
iOS is around 10%, Android around 90%. (https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/iran/%20)
Briar is available on Google Play for devices running Android.
The one you just summarized perfectly.
10% of devices or less.
Unfortunately, due to safety reasons Apple cannot allow you to leave the walled garden, it is only in your own best interest. All communication services on our iOS devices require at least one US-based NSA-integrated middleman. /s
Seriously though, given all the NSA has done: Could the NSA launch a "beach head" inside Apple?
Don’t forget the horror stories of people relying on iCloud to have all their personal life there only to get locked out for silly reasons.
I like briar for the fact that i already have the hardware...
I like meshtastic for not needing the network related devices for their hardware
What I'd like is something that is platform agnostic... I want an app that i can install, a (tor like) server i can setup that will anonymously route and fwd messages and really cheap and easy hardware that will let me pop up mini repeaters on demand. Would also like to be able to send images and maybe videos, but for the network to be smart enough to only send them when the bandwidth is there
I may just stick with briar in the mean time, but seriously none of them seem to offer what i want.
Minneapolis needs this now.
Hooray! As a Rabin fan, I love Briar and so tremendously excited to be reading this. Thank you, all who are involved with this magnificent project!!
I'm still unclear how the stated goal of the title is achieved. My first assumption reading the title that it works something like airtags, but that is obviously nonsense. unless you are standing right next to the guy you want to message, how exactly does it work?
https://briarproject.org/how-it-works/
Looks like clients re-host posts to their friends in a p2p fashion.
Thanks. Basically it depends on c travelling to another town. Also taking the risk of being caught with the content on it's phone. It looks like a great app and every little helps but hardly a game changer, unless i'm underestimating how bad it is in Iran?
If it works via tor it's probably also slow, but that's a small price to pay for not relying on a central server for people with legitimate concerns or problems with connecting.
Perhaps Americans should start preparing with Meshtastic / Meshcore, just in case....... ..,..the Emperor seems hellbent on bringing martial law into effect.
Do you think the govt will not force Google to revoke developer certs once developer verification is in place to prevent sideloading or not order Google/Apple to forcibly uninstall them ?
These are great tools in American toolkit if it wants to do a regime change in other countries. Their effectiveness within America are questionable.
The military can very easily find and eliminate repeaters very quickly and almost certainly would.
Then get more? Sounds like a fantastic way to waste military resources. I have no clue why this mythical US military might and efficiency idea persists after so many failed interventions.
Here's a funny example of making it harder to find: https://youtu.be/W_F4rEaRduk?t=178
Triangulation is damn easy. If the US can put on bomb on a suspect satellite phone user back in the 2000's (and they did!), they can certainly send a bomb on that today.
Sat phones during the second gulf war (maybe even the first) became a liability. The transmission lit them up like a god damn beacon saying, "Bomb goes here!".
Triangulation, the math isn't the hard part. Where exactly on the continental United States are you proposing dropping ordinance? MOVE in 1985 was controversial even back then.
Good luck if your mesh network is on 2.4/5/6ghz.
It'll blend in with background radiation from home routers.
>the more people who use it, the more robust and far-reaching and reliable it gets.
I was under the opposite impression, that meshtastic's whole problem is that it doesn't scale well at all.
I'm genuinely interested in learning more about the shortcomings of meshtastic if you have a link to share. Groups like the Anarchist Black Cross seem really supportive of the tech for disaster situations. Even Benn Jordan claimed it played an important role during the floods in NC
My understanding is that it relates to the flood routing in meshtastic. I haven't heard a real-world failure example, but another comment on this post mentioned defcon being a case (I don't know anything about that).
I did find this assessment:
https://www.disk91.com/2024/technology/lora/critical-analysi...
And here is Meshtastics explanation of the rationale behind 'managed flood routing':
https://meshtastic.org/blog/why-meshtastic-uses-managed-floo...
I think I first heard about the differences from Andy Kirby, one of the MeshCore creators: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNWf0Mh2fJw
The intervention part is an administrative problem the military isn't designed for. For the core mission of collecting intelligence, eliminating targets, and occupying land, the US has an unrivaled track record over the last 85 years.
You must have missed the S-tier op that went down January 3rd.
That was a single mission planned over months. We're talking about a continuous subjudagtion.
No, just blast the hell out of the ISM bands on which they operate. This seem certainly feasible for a military apparatus the size of the US.
I'm sure everybody's going to stay on ISM bands to remain compliant with government regulations while being attacked by the government.
This deserves a /s
The economic impact of that would be massive re: business operational impact.
Directional radios would still win out on p2p links.
The interventions fail only after enormous slaughter, which people are understandably keen to not be subject to
As if compliance had such a great success rate.
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I don't think it's going to be military killing a Americans. As of now it more looks like federal government.
Nevertheless, sure, in the rural areas, but less so in the cities, reflections and bending of the waves make it much harder, and a single repeater with solar panel and battery could plausibly be made under $50.
A military won't be killing all Americans, just the ones it can label as "terrorists" to the people who elected them.
They are being made. I have a four node network already in my suburb. There is a software project that is written in Python that essentially turns lorawan nodes into BBSs similar to briar.
They're incredibly easy to build and even disguise as lawn ornaments as Benn Jordan showed in a recent video. When it costs us less money and time to build them than it costs the gov't to find/destroy them it's a worthy investment
Maybe ham repeaters but when we are talking lorawan they will have a hell of a time taking the networks down that are already established. Just in my suburb we have more than 6000 nodes because of the helium network.
It would be futile. It's a big country full of 340,000,000 people.
Great way to waste resources though.
Repeater coupled with [autonomous] drone to change [hard-to-get-to rooftop, treetop and the likes] location every 10 minutes like in a combat zone.
Repeaters built into collars and put on feral cats.
Is this a real thing???
In Ukraine - pretty close.
Isn't stopping abuses of the power of the military the reason for the 2nd Amendment?
Why don't the people in Minnesota go open carry and let ICE agents think twice before drawing their weapons on people?
Renee Good was killed after dropping off her six-year-old child at school. I agree with you, but people like her have children and are not trying to die in the street just for looking at somebody the wrong way. And it's one thing to open carry, it's another thing to become a trained and confident marksmen.
And as someone who has had half a dozen police officers simultaneously pointing guns at my head, mistaking me for someone else in public, once you're in that situation, escalation is only going to lead to death. Out here, police shoot you if your hand goes anywhere near your waist.
>Isn't stopping abuses of the power of the military the reason for the 2nd Amendment?
It was for establishing well ordered militias. They could be used to help defend the country in a time of war.
> Why don't the people in Minnesota go open carry and let ICE agents think twice before drawing their weapons on people?
Most of the demonstrators believe that "the pen is mightier than the sword", and non-violence is the way to achieve political means. (Ghandi, MLK jr.)
When the peace-niks start amassing guns, that's when you have a tipping point in this country.
What's the definition of a well-ordered militia? A bunch of farmers that go shooting together?
A bunch of farmers that go shooting drunk. /s
Seriously though, everyone back in the 1700s realized that all Americans were American. I'm not sure that's true any more.
> Seriously though, everyone back in the 1700s realized that all Americans were American. I'm not sure that's true any more.
What was an American in the 1700s? A person born in America?
Meshtastic is both extremely range limited and trivial to DDOS. It's a fun toy protocol but it's not resistant to nation state disruption at all.
It's only line-of-sight, but isn't the range 10s-100s of kilometres in open areas? Some repeaters on hills/mountains etc. could connect large areas potentially.
It's trivially jammable, as evidenced by the network not working at popular events such as Defcon with default firmware settings.
I looked a bit into meshtastic and was told that if a node was physically compromised then messages could be intercepted. That cant be right, right?
From what I understand no, the relay node has no access to the messages.
If you compromise sending or receiving node then sure, of course.
Why bother? Just jam the fucking hell out of it. Most critical infrastructure is not on the ISM bands.
A lot of things are.
You could theoretically even shut down airplane printers in the cockpit if the jamming was strong enough.
You'd be surprised the things that are tied to ism wifi and bluetooth
There was a well known crypto weakness, CVE-2025-52464, that allowed man in the middle decryption of meshtastic traffic. It was fixed by a firmware patch that improved crypto discipline.
Bad randomness in generating keys, for anyone else wondering
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"domestic"? That could be anywhere, what do you mean?
I am in the US but I think the statement applies for >70% of the earth. China, Europe, the UK (big time), India, etc. Maybe not so bad in like, Japan -_(--)_-
Can you expand on that? I'm from a developing country and we're very worried about what's going on in America. Is the situation really as bad as Iran?
Our situation has disturbing echoes, but thankfully thousands of protesters haven't yet been murdered here.
The death toll, especially of non-citizens, is piling up however.
No. It's nowhere near Iran, but it's bad by typical US standards.
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Who am i scoring a cheap shot on? ICE?
Good