Last time I flew Delta they no longer had this bot, which made me sad. One of my favorite parts of flying was getting absolutely crushed into a tiny cube by the airplane seat's easy chess bot, and then again by the airplane seat itself when the person in front of me reclines their seat.
> then again by the airplane seat itself when the person in front of me reclines their seat.
This reminds me of the time I had my laptop open on the tilt-down tray and the very large man in the seat in front just repositioned his girth (not even reclining the seat) but it flexed the seat back enough that my laptop screen was momentarily caught between the tray below and recessed lip above and was almost crushed.
That happened to me when I had an ipad in a standing case and the seat in front cranked back - trapping then pinging the tablet across me and by neighbour's lap.
Though the ipad itself wasn't damaged, a couple of glasses didn't make it, and required the steward to try to brush up whatever fragments of glass they could.
I feel that airlines are a microcosm of "Do you care about who you actions might affect?" - similar to the "Do you return the cart to the corral" test at supermarkets - are you willing to put even the smallest bit of effort to significantly improve other people's experiences?
Airlines shouldn't have reclining seats, it's bad design. Blaming people for the bad design is stupid. I never recline and still blame it on the design. Stupid people exist, you should design for that.
Sorry for an empty response but this, 100% this. As a person who is WELL over 6' tall, the very idea that the person in front of me might recline is enough to give me significant anxiety throughout a flight. I once saw a design for seats where the base slides forward if you want to recline - the idea being, if you're going to recline you're going to do so into your own space, not the person behind you. I'd be a big advocate of that change in seat design...
I’m a shade under 2m tall.
If I put my knees together and sit up straight (back hard against my seat), my knees are hard against the seat in front. They can’t recline. It doesn’t even hurt, the seat just won’t move. Last flight someone turned around and complained then complained to the stewardess. I’m not sticking my legs into my neighbours space, am the time I extended into the aisle I fell asleep and got knee capped by a trolley.
‘Where would you like me to put my legs?’
I’m writing this from a plane seat, having paid for extra room and having been bumped by the airline. That’s nz$1000 gone and 17 hours of misery.
Qatar. Never again.
Aside: I also don’t recline without any empty seat or sleeping person behind.
I'm also over 6' and I don't understand the problem? The seats only recline a few degrees, it's not like they're laying on my lap! Even fully reclined there's plenty of space in front of my face, and leg room is barely impacted at all. (Like probably an inch max?)
Granted, I've only flown American and Delta, maybe other airlines are worse in this respect?
I'm 6'4" with a lot of my height in my legs. Sitting comfortably (not slouching, mind you), my knees already barely rub against the seat in front of me. As soon as that seat is reclined, my knees get crushed and I have to either sit up even straighter or twist to the side, neither of which are comfortable. Or, I have to pay to be in a higher fare class with more space.
Have you tried the exit row instead? Sure, you might have to agree to help others, but if you aren't willing to do that regardless of the row, then that just says a lot about you.
Yepp, I generally will try for the exit row or the first row in a section (sacrificing no under seat storage), but they tend to be the first seats booked. Since I'm usually traveling with multiple other people and we prefer sitting together, it makes it pretty difficult to reliably select those seats with extra leg room. I haven't seen any airlines that charge "+$25 for the extra leg room" on 12+ hour international flights, but if they exist I'd love to know which ones they are!
I’m doing a 17 hour flight right now and paid NZ$1000 extra of the seat you are describing. Booked and paid in March, 9-10 months ago.
Three other people also booked it and I didn’t get it. Qatar airways.
It's been awhile 2017ish, but I used to book flights for a team of photographers that traveled a lot. They all had their individual preferences for aisle/window, exit row. Maybe it was because they all had lots of butt-in-chair miles, but their upgrades were typically $25 for domestic US travel. Maybe I'm conflating that as the price for everyone when it was the price for their status only???
The physical requirements are an issue for a lot of people. E.g. a tall senior citizen, anyone flying with a small child, anyone with a visible disability (temporary or otherwise).
I know American at least has some rows with extra leg room that aren't the exit row. (Though obviously if you want more space you have to pay for it.) Not sure about others.
Yes, it's usually called "premium economy" or something like that. I was resistant for a long time, but eventually decided that being able to walk the next day without pain was worth the extra cost. That said, they tend to fill up quickly -- so not always an option.
Many airlines don't let you choose your seat without paying extra. But yeah, maybe if you're that tall that's just an unfortunate extra cost you have to bear.
At some point you have to do the math. Is +$25 for the extra leg room worth it for a 3 hour flight? 6 hour flight?
I flew from DFW to Sydney on a flight that was not fully booked. They made an announcement for a $150 upgrade to have an entire row to yourself. Once in the air, all of the armrests could be raised to allow you to lay flat. $150/17hours ~= $9/hour for a comfortable-ish sleep on a long haul flight. That's better math than the app subscription model threads have.
They charge do these seats.
And if anyone is finding they have to help out in emergency seats on the regular, please tell us which airline.
* they do charge for.
Those few degrees matter if your knees are already brushing the back of the seat in front of you. It matters how tall you are, how much of that is in your legs, how big your feet are (the more you need to bend your knees, the higher they will be), and it also varies depending on seat design and layout.
For others like me, one trick is to at most minimally use the under seat storage: small handbags only. No backpacks, briefcases, or anything else big enough to hold a laptop. Then, you can put your feet in that space. This lowers my knees by 1-2 inches depending on the plane, which really matters. It's the only thing that helps significantly, aside from paying for premium economy. Doesn't help with the claustrophobia, but there's not much to be done about that.
The other things I've tried (that don't reliably work) are leaning forward from the seat back (to pull my knees back) and slouching slightly (so that the inevitable recline compresses the seat back into my knees rather than bashing them). The former saves my knees, but sacrifices my back. The latter kind of helps during the flight, but walking will still hurt the next day.
> one trick is to at most minimally use the under seat storage [...] Then, you can put your feet in that space
Oh, interesting. I've always done that, it never really occurred to me that others might not. Even if you have a bigger bag you can always take it out during the flight to make space for your feet. That, plus crossing my legs allows me to have my legs flat against the chair (and therefore my knees well below the level where the person in front reclining would make much difference).
Well, it can be annoying to limit oneself to a smaller under-seat bag. Taking the bigger bag out during the flight uses up even more of the available space. I've generally got nowhere to put it except behind my legs (which cramps things a lot): on my lap doesn't work if I want to actually use anything in that bag.
It's easier to just pack my laptop (plus anything I might use during the flight) in my overhead bin carry-on. It's a real pain to actually get anything out of there, but a paperback book or ebook reader will fit in a coat pocket or small handbag -- and that's all I truly need on the plane. Plus, the airline won't be able to force you to check your overhead carry-on that way since the laptop has lithium batteries in it.
6ft plus too, I agree with GP, definitely a problem for me when the seat in front reclines.
My legs are proportionately longer than my upper body which increases the negative effect.
Why does leg length matter? Reclining doesn't impact leg room much since only the upper part of the seat is moving backwards any significant distance, and the space under the seat where my feet go is completely unaffected.
Are your legs so long you have to sit with your knees pressed against the back of the seat in front of you or something? If so I suppose that's understandable.
"Are your legs so long you have to sit with your knees pressed against the back of the seat in front of you or something? If so I suppose that's understandable."
Yes and also for people with long legs, seated in a typical airline seat, their knees will be significantly higher than the top of the seat cushion. So, they get caught up in the sweep of a reclining seatback ahead.
My legs are long enough there isn't room for them to press against the back of the seat. I'm either manspreading into the crevases between seats or in foetal position with my knees halfway up the seat in front of me. A person reclining is excruciating in the former, but in the latter position at least the person in front can't recline as there's no physical space for my body to become more compact. Flying is hell.
Yes, my knees often/always bump into the seat in front of me, even without it being reclined. If/when it is reclined it means my knees are pressed harder backwards.
When I can, I pay for extra leg room or get an aisle seat.
My opinion is strongly that seats should not be reclined. It is inconsiderate.
I agree that sounds frustrating. Respectfully though, it sounds like you're a special case and that's not a problem which would apply to most people.
But maybe in the future I'll make a point of checking whether the person behind me is in the 95th percentile of adult male heights before reclining.
> I agree that sounds frustrating. Respectfully though, it sounds like you're a special case
It would be interesting to know the numbers on this. Height is not going to tell the answer though, you as people of the same height have wildly variably limb length.
I know half a dozen people who have the same issue and they vary from 1.9-2.1m tall.
I don't work in a circus.
1.9m is 6' 3", already in the 93rd percentile of US adult males according to this chart. https://preview.redd.it/oruqlgczepp91.png?auto=webp&s=cb797f... 2.1m is in the 99th percentile. Maybe you just have a lot of very tall friends.
Maybe. I used to like being tall, but seeing a colleague use a fixed height desk as a standing desk has made me reconsider.
Short people would seem likely to be comfortable in more places.
I think once you get past the 95th percentile in any metric like that things start to get more difficult. I'm not even that tall and I sometimes have trouble finding pants that fit me. I imagine there are probably similar difficulties on the other end of the spectrum being below the 5th percentile.
Pants get a large waist as they get longer. I’m not sure I’ve ever had a pair that fit.
Shoe get destroyed very fast, I’m not sure what it is and my feet aren’t that large (UK 12 or 13) but 6 months tops, and they are in pieces.
I used to have so much trouble with pants (I need 30-34 in inches, 86.4cm long and about 76cm waist). No store had that size. I once got to the point where I considered leaning into my Scottish heritage and just wearing a kilt.
The internet has alleviated that for me, but if it hasn't for you -- look for pants with a large hem, and learn some basic sewing skills. It's occasionally possible to add an inch or more of length with the right pair.
This is true, above 190 cm in height some things become issues. Above 2 m must be inconvenient pretty often.
Sure, my femurs are longer than most peoples, but they are with me on _every_ flight I take.
So it is kind of frustrating to me with people like in this thread explicitly saying "I do not care, I will recline my seat, it is not my problem if someone else suffers, they are just being entitled".
> Are your legs so long you have to sit with your knees pressed against the back of the seat in front of you or something?
Not OP. Yes.
good news: that seat design is available and some airlines use it.
> some airlines use it.
and there lies the rub.
Flights from sfo to Frankfurt bolt upright sound unpleasant…
Not to mention that when my wife was pregnant she could barely manage her back pain -with- the recline, never mind without.
The recline button is there for your use. You are welcome to avail of it yourself.
> You are welcome to avail of it yourself.
Ah, the exact opposite of the "pay it forward" principle...
That's exactly how it usually happens in my experience. I think a lot of people are OK if everyones upright on short haul flights (here most budget airlines don't have a recline facility and it's not missed) but once someone reclines into your space you then recline to gain a little space back and the domino effect takes place even if you're not sleeping.
And then the person in the last row is screwed because they are in a seat that doesn't recline but the seat in front of them does, so they have to sit like a canned sardine for the entire flight(ask me how I know).
> Flights from sfo to Frankfurt bolt upright sound unpleasant
Medium haul flights sound like a dream to us slumming down the bottom of the planet.
At least we have Elon giving us decent wifi now. Doha > Auckland at the moment.
> Flights from sfo to Frankfurt bolt upright sound unpleasant
Same flight with someone's seat resting on your knees is downright painful.
> when my wife was pregnant
Imagine if she was a bit taller and someone reclined the seat all the way over her.
> The recline button is there for your use
You're right, like any shared resource, "space" is there for you to use. It doesn't mean you have to use it, you could try to be aware of your surroundings and assess whether your small comfort should come at the cost of someone else's extreme discomfort. And if you use the button others are also free, and probably correct, to call you a dick. Like a guy who empties the bowl of complimentary candy someone offers to all customers.
You shouldn't need physical blocks or laws to define your own common sense and decency.
I'm 185cm and I couldn't imagine having to endure a long haul flight without reclining.
I never get these discussions. It's only ever online that I see complaints. Almost everyone reclines on long flights. It's normal. It's expected. If it makes you uncomfortable that's a you problem, everyone else seems fine with it. If it makes you physically uncomfortable, pay for extra leg room. Don't make your problem the problem of another passenger.
> I never get these discussions. It's only ever online that I see complaints. everyone else seems fine with it
That's a skewed conclusion you're drawing. Are you really surprised that people aren't willing to risk escalating the situation on a plane, arguing with what's likely the very inconsiderate person in front of them? Most people have an aversion to conflict. It doesn't mean "they're fine with it". You probably don’t advertise in real life how much you lean back and not care who’s behind you out of fear that people will change your opinion of you. Real life is a harsh mistress.
I've bumped into people and they said "sorry", do you think they wanted me to bump into them, liked it, and actually believed it was their mistake? No, I just tower at close to 2m so they didn't want to escalate the situation.
P.S. I always look at who sits behind me, if they're "space constrained" or not, and almost always ask if I can recline. Sometimes I don't bother, clearly the person will suffer. Sometimes they said "I'd rather not, thank you". Many times they said "fine". I used to fly a lot and my experience was very clearly not that "everyone is fine". I was never fine even if I didn't start arguing. So how would you have known?
I've literally never been on a 5+ hour flight where anyone in the row in front of me didn't recline at some point.
I've discussed this with various people IRL. No one, including taller people than me, ever complained about people being inconsiderate for reclining. Every tall person complains about leg room.
The vast majority of people do not think it's inconsiderate to recline. They think it's normal and that the function is there for a reason.
I actually think it's inconsiderate to complain to the person in front if they want to recline. The only time that is acceptable is when meals are served.
Anecdotal, but I'm 193cm, take a few 12+ hour flights per year, and have no problem not reclining. For what it's worth, I feel like I've experienced people on my shorter, domestic flights reclining their seats more often than on my longer, international flights.
> I never get these discussions.
Nor I. TFA is about a chess bot, yet here we are discussing seat reclining etiquette.
You’ve been here before right?
At least we aren’t discussing ad blockers for the 18th time this week.
Still does not negate that they do not make sense when they occur.
You're tall so you can't sit upright? :P Do you need to lean backwards when you work too? I think you are wrong and a lot of people are not fine with it. I don't need a closeup view of someone's bald spot while trying to eat shitty airplane food.
So why is the recline button there?
Mainly because they were introduced when the seats were set farther apart. Now companies squeeze more rows and keep the same seats.
But also because with any shared resource there's an expectation of decency involved. Some people just betray that expectation. They're the ones with the mentality that "they shouldn't have served alcohol if they didn't want me to get insufferably drunk", "they shouldn't have put the candy out if they didn't want me to take all of it", "why is the swing there in the park if not for my kids to use them continuously to the disappointment of other kids".
When your wife was pregnant someone probably let her go ahead in a queue, have her some priority for something, etc. That was a person with common sense and decency, not asking "why do queues exist", who doesn't do something only if there's a law about it.
I’m several inches over 6’ and if I don’t get a fire exit seat I’m highly likely to get seated behind someone who will call me “extremely rude” for wrangling uncomfortably and bumping their seat uncontrollably when they inevitably decide that extra 6 degrees of recline is worth more than my knee cartilage.
People generally didn’t even offer her a seat on the metro. And letting other people decide whether you should be permitted to use the functionality the airline has given you is dysfunctional people pleasing.
> dysfunctional people pleasing
Your "dysfunctional people pleasing" is someone else's "not being a total dick". As I said, there's no law against it. It's all about character and education (or lack thereof). Some people even think they must brag about it because why else would they have a mouth and keyboard.
"Reclining one's airline seat = being a total dick" is the Godwin's-lawification of airline travel.
>the functionality you have paid for
Good for me but not for thee.
I still see ashtrays on older plans, trains, and boats. Sometimes older stuff is left there because it's not financially advantageous to replace it. You can use the recline button to your liking, but it can be inconsiderate to do it. Traveler discretion is advised.
A question you can always ask yourself is "should I do it just because I can do it?". It will stop you from being needlessly inconsiderate many times, and maybe even make you a better person.
in reality there should be a legal minimum leg room that's based on the distance of the flight
the recline feature should be baked in to this as well
It's the 21st century. Blowhards of the world united with the miracle of technology are moaning at any attempt of common sense regulation. This will become culture wars material right away.
They would argue that the market would solve the issue.
I think reclining is appropriate at night only. If it were up to me, they would be locked upright during the day.
Night or day is a vague concept on an 11 hour flight
It wouldn't surprise me if Ryanair had reclining seats that reclined only if you paid for it.
I think the secret of Ryanair is that their goal is actually to make their turnarounds as fast and efficient as possible, not explicitly to make money by adding a fee for every little aspect of the service.
If anything can possibly slow down flight boarding, disembarking or cleanup, they'll first try to remove it completely, and only if people object too much will they reluctantly offer it with a fee.
Pocket on the seat back -> most people don't use on short flights -> get rid of them.
Luggage -> most people need this, but not everyone -> charge a fee.
Reclining seat -> most people don't use on short flights -> get rid of them.
They do sell drinks and duty free; that's an interesting one. I guess once the flight is airborne, the flight attendants aren't really doing anything else (from management's perspective) so they might as well sell stuff. Plus the trolley blocking the aisle stops passengers from moving around, which they probably see as a big advantage.
I think this even applies to the ridiculous penalty fees they charge for e.g. trying to check in at the airport rather than doing it beforehand on the app. It feels like they're just trying to rip you off, but I suspect they see it more as a "nudge" to make people check in online, because that streamlines their airport process.
I got a little bit less annoyed by them when I realised this. Sure, it's still uncomfortable and sometimes infuriating, but it's all with the aim of an efficient and reliable service, and they're way better than average at that.
> It feels like they're just trying to rip you off, but I suspect they see it more as a "nudge" to make people check in online, because that streamlines their airport process.
I believe the airline pays the airport for every check in and luggage handling transaction. They are just cutting costs.
That's not (really) it.
Ryanair makes little to no money from passengers, nowadays it's mainly from selling airplanes. They were still profitable during COVID without even carrying passengers at some point, only thanks to their flying school, which thanks to social dumping and the UE, allow them to charge 40k€ per wannabe pilot without even guaranteeing them a hire.
They booked 2000 737max, with their own special version during COVID+MCAS disaster, they paid it dirt cheap.
Then they operate them marginally, and now that the traffic has gone up again and the delay between buying and receiving a Max is about 8 years, they sell them back for a huge profit.
It's been known for ages in the industry.
Do you have a link for that? It sounds interesting but a bit unlikely. It's hard to see how charging for pilot training, even at 40K a pop, would be a sustainable business.
The thing about buying planes is also interesting, but sounds like a sneaky business move rather than the actual foundation of the business.
I've always heard that nobody really makes money from passengers, which is why airlines are always going bankrupt, and I'm sure Ryanair's margins are super skinny. But even so, it does seem like moving passengers around is the core of their business, rather than it just being a front for something else.
I never thought of it this way, but now it's clear.
I found that once I tack on luggage, a seat with more space, etc.. they become more expensive than traditional airlines with the same package.
In other words, their business model really seems to be to cater to the "least hassle" passengers who travel light and don't need any extras.
Great analysis and insight! Thanks for sharing
"Your neighbor is trying to recline, outbid them to stop them..."
One verification can to you, sir, for this chuckle.
Thank you sir for the one shiny object.
Don't give them ideas!
Shhh. BMW might hear.
Ryanair doesn't have reclining seats at all.
Which means they haven’t found a way to monetize the feature yet!
Reclining seats are more expensive and heavier. The target customer for a low cost flight is cost sensitive and more resistant to "punishment". The expense would be hard to recuperate.
This is one thing I like about Ryanair; they don't.
I think that they should just make reclining mandatory
> do you care about who your actions might affect
This one surprises me every time I fly. When I have the aisle seat I can be up and out in 10 seconds. It seems to make like everyone else will plop down , place down 3 different liquids on the tray and then take a nap. When I ask to use the bathroom I end up feeling like a nuisance
> When I ask to use the bathroom I end up feeling like a nuisance
It's your right to ask to use the bathroom whenever you need. And others have the right to use that little tray for their stuff when they want. (while allowed by the airline, of course)
You are describing exactly that phenomenon. Of course it's your "right" to do that technically, but is it a nuisance to others? Yes.
Just like smoking next to others (when allowed), or reclining your seat 100% in economy. Technically it's your right to just that.
People asserting their rights is a significant portion of the reason half the population seems angry.
The old problem of "just because you can, doesn't mean you should".
Tactfully ambiguous as to which half you think is asserting their rights and which half you think is angry.
Ha! Wasn’t intentional but also, I’m not sure.
Yup, it's their right, as it's their right to crank their seat back. Both are available, and expected. I see some take issue with people doing them at all, but I don't really mind much. Might be related to being 180cm or so - about 5"11, when most complaining seem to be larger.
My issue on my original post isn't really them moving the seat, but the lack of notice. It would have taken barely a second to lean over the seat and let me know. But I suspect they didn't even think about how that might affect anyone else.
It would be kinda crazy if someone didn't say they wanted to get out to the aisle and just started trying to climb over you with no warning.
Selecting the aisle seat is consenting to be asked to get up, so don't feel bad for asking.
That said, 10 seconds is not a realistic expectation. Ask before it's an emergency.
I actually quite liek yanair's no frills no recline design. For some reason it feels less clusterphobic to me. it just feels more spacious and roomy, despite the absence of space.
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And if you are the airline the answer is a resounding "no"
The airline is not a human being. It is an imaginary construct.
And yet it still gets to participate and answer the question in the worst way.
Only in some messed up parts of the world.
Airlines pick out what seats they want and how to space them in most of the world, don't they?
That's the root cause of the suffering here. The actions with the strongest ill effects.
Gorilla glass vs gorilla
(I get the joke) Not even gorillas even, the seats on most US carriers are too small and narrow for a lot of adult men even if they're in good shape. I had to sit shoulder to shoulder with one poor guy an entire flight to New Zealand because both of our shoulder widths are wider than the seats and I wanted to make sure my girlfriend had room enough to sleep. We were both good sports about it and were joking about needing a smoke afterwards, but it was not fun unless he wanted to lean halfway out into the aisle. I'm taller than average but not a giant.
I flew Scoot airlines recently and my 13” MacBook Air was too big to have on my lap even though the seat in front was not reclined.
There's also something about those seats where you get back pain when you try to sleep with your own seat reclined.
Comfort is an up charge.
Lost an Apple iBook screen this way. Guy in front slammed his chair back while I was working on a presentation and the screen got caught at the perfect angle to flex it and it died.
Didn't blame him, lesson learned, and I move my own seat back very slowly now.
Scary.. Did the airline comp you for that?
Of course not!
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I swear this happens to me almost every time I fly.
now you know to check who's sitting in front of you. rookie mistake
Opened a laptop on my last flight and this was my immediate and persistent fear
Even when travelling for work I could never bring myself to get a laptop out on an aircraft. I only do it on the train occasionally if I've got something I'm deep into and a table to myself.
> when the person in front of me reclines their seat.
As a reasonably tall person I have never reclined my seat and will forever consider anyone who does an asshole.
The very fact that you can but don’t do something is the precise space where assholeness is defined.
This is fair on shorter flights ~1-4 hours, but I am reasonably tall too and I am not suffering through a 14 hour overnight flight without reclining. I don't think there is anything wrong with it in this case, and flight attendants will force people to de-recline their chair in meal times etc.
Surely you should blame the airlines, rather than the individuals. They cram more people on, giving you less space - but charge the same - and you get mad at other customers, rather than them for cramming you in.
> They cram more people on, giving you less space - but charge the same - and you get mad at other customers, rather than them for cramming you in.
Airline fares are very cheap. Just the other day they compared the cost of flying from London to Calcutta decades ago vs now - much cheaper now. You'll see the same when you compare domestic flights.
Yes, it's true that you had more leg room back then. Now you have the option to pay the same high fares and get similar leg room, or be cheap and get less leg room.
Classic example of "more choice leads to more dissatisfaction".
I pointed out exactly the opposite: surely moral action is only possible when one has agency.
If an airline needs to force you to be a decent person, then you have no right to claim decency in the first place.
People who lean their seats back are assholes. Claiming “but this is permitted!” proves my point.
I can’t imagine what a nightmare world it would be if decency were only possible through the exercise of external authority.
You have the agency to let the person in front of you have a more enjoyable flight without judging them for it.
That is also a decent and unselfish thing to do.
I don't lean back on flights, but I don't consider the person in front of me an asshole for doing it.
Are you talking about agency and not being an asshole, or are you just being selfish about your space?
> You have the agency to let the person in front of you have a more enjoyable flight without judging them for it.
No, being doormat that never judges assholes is not necessary in order to be a decent person.
In fact, there is special category of decent person heroes who do the uncomfortable thing, judge assholes and even protect and help others when assholery becomes too much. Both when talking about recliners and like, terrorizing thugs in streets.
> Are you talking about agency and not being an asshole, or are you just being selfish about your space?
It is not being selfish to not want to give your space to an asshole who decided to take it. That person is still an asshole. And again, both when we are talking about recliner and when certain government sends violent thugs.
> People who lean their seats back are assholes.
Clearly, many HN users, as well as much of the population, disagree with you.
You may want to re-evaluate your moral values.
And yet I'd prefer both myself and the person in front of me lean back. The upright posture is painful for me. Is your preference more valid then mine? The fact that the chairs are configured that way suggests the cultural norm.
Leaning back doesn't help knee room, the person in front leaning back actually reduces it by the seat back leaning against a tall person's knees.
Even though I'm tall it's about the back, not the knees.
For me, it's the knees. When everyone is leaned back you can't even comfortably use a tablet to read, while I can comfortably sit upright for a few hours (of course taking a walk from time to time). The person in front reclining their seat forces me to either manspread into the seat on the left or right (if I'm not on the aisle) or stick my feet in the aisle and getting in the cabin crew's way as they move back and forth.
so I guess you pay to choose seats in the last row of the plane...
I did this once and one time was forced into doing it and it was a horrific nightmare. The lack of contra for my legs meant I was constantly slipping forward, it was tiring. The fact that this is an emergency seat made it worse - there was no handle for the hand because of some bullshit. The flight attendant policed every action I did from putting my jacket on to eating with the attachable tray. I will never do it again even if it means I fly for free.
One of the most relaxed flights I ever had I was window seat in the back row with a pleasant elderly couple. When everyone else was busy queuing to get off the plane they were sat knitting. I'd got into my novel and just sat enjoying it until they moved. Far less stressful than the usual madness.
They're absolutely not assholes. People who expect the world to revolve around them and cater for their every whim are probably more deserving of that title.
If you don't fit in the smallest seat then buy a bigger seat. Someone using the space they paid for is not being an asshole.
Tall people don't choose their height, fat people (mostly) choose their weight.
Edit: also, if the airline can't deal with a certain percentile of the population under their normal product, they should figure out how to make it happen. It's discrimination to not account for tall people
Could a down voter chime in?
I just did that. And having paid an extra $1000 per seat for 3 seats, the airline (Qatar) gave them to someone else.
Neat. Now what do I do?
Typed from a 17 hour flight to New Zealand.
I personally believe that the ideal situation is in fact everyone reclining their seat
I'm about 6' tall, even. In some cattlejets, my knees physically touch the seat in front of me. A lady on a recent flight flung her seat back and I cried out involuntarily in sudden pain.
I understand why she wanted to lean back. And yet, when she did, it freaking hurt. I'm around the 80th percentile in height in the US, and while my doctor says I could lose a few pounds, I wear a men's large shirt so I'm not exactly enormous. Even though they seat can technically recline, you cannot convince me that they're actually meant to.
Can I have the 5th element padded roller beds that are disinfected between every use?
My ideal airline would be one where you show up to the airport with your luggage, check it in, and then they knock you out and load you on the plane.
You get woken up at your destination after they've taken you off the plane. It would be the closest thing you can get to teleportation.
Then the airline wouldn't have to fuss with preparing shitty food and coffee or deal with annoying passengers. A win for everyone!
they had this in "the 5th element"
Not every seat reclines: the one in front of the exit row is a key example.
I get significant pain when I sit fully upright. If I must fly I need to recline. I've been to a doctor (and had surgery...) but the pain is there and reclining is required for minimal comfort. Deal with it, the seats are small, but my seat is going to affect you, you are just a jerk for thinking you need that extra space.
I have never come across this opinion until it seemed to have blown up on the internet in the last few years.
Seats have gotten smaller. It wasn’t a big deal 30 years ago because you could reclining without mashing the person behind you.
It’s kind of like a yoga studio with mats 3 feet apart when they use to be 6. You’re allowed, and encouraged, to spread your arms out wide, but now if you do you’re going to have a hand in your neighbor’s face. The yoga studio laughs at the visitors arguing about whether one’s an asshole for using their arm space, or for telling others to stop slapping them in the face, when the whole thing is their fault.
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If I have the option to recline my seat, and doing so is going to make me more comfortable, that’s what I’m going to do.
I can live with the person behind me thinking I’m an asshole.
The airline offers the facility and I won’t sacrifice my own needs for fear of upsetting a stranger.
“It’s all about me!”
I suspect they’re not the only person around you who thinks you’re an asshole.
“It’s all about me!” Says the person that demands everyone conform to their preference.
I mean, do whatever you want that doesn’t hurt people around you. But when it hurts them, it’s time to ask whether our own convenience is worth the pain we’re causing.
Why is the airplane that chooses to place seats so close together not on the hook for all of the blame in this scenario? We could just offer a decent traveling experience for everyone.
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Isn't it the passenger's fault for failing to purchase a seat that meets their needs? The airline isn't to blame for offering a cheaper alternative for those who find it sufficient. And other passengers certainly aren't to blame for using the product that they purchased.
Oh, it’s definitely their fault. They brought this about to cram extra seats on a flight, customers be damned. No doubt about it, they’re certainly the root cause.
But when you find yourself in an uncomfortable group situation, it’s good to ask how you can make it better for everyone, or at least not worsen it. “I paid so I’m doing whatever it takes to not inconvenience myself in the slightest” is the origin of “this is why we can’t have nice things”.
It’s different when there’s a compelling physical need here. If the person in front of me has a hurt back and can’t bear sitting upright, and I knew about it, I’d put up with it as best I can in the interest of we’ve all got to get along. But in the scheme of things, not that many people are unable to sit up and not crush their neighbors.
> It’s different when there’s a compelling physical need here. If the person in front of me has a hurt back and can’t bear sitting upright, and I knew about it, I’d put up with it as best I can in the interest of we’ve all got to get along. But in the scheme of things, not that many people are unable to sit up and not crush their neighbors.
How would you know whether or not the person in front of you has a compelling physical need? Are they supposed to explain their health concerns to you in the hope that you deem it sufficiently acceptable for them to do what they can to be comfortable? It’s unreasonable to expect someone in physical pain to suffer the indignity of explaining themselves to someone they don’t know.
Fair point! So when I scream in their ear for causing me pain, your contention is that I’m free to do that and I don’t owe them an explanation. I’m sure that logic will make everyone around us smile and nod their heads in approval.
That seems like quite the leap and will more than likely result in you being escorted off the plane when you reach your destination.
It may well be an inconvenience to you if someone chooses to recline their seat but nobody owes you an explanation. Expecting them to justify themselves to you isn’t a reasonable stance. And given that you don’t know what someone is going through, whether they have a hidden disability, whether they’re in chronic pain, I really wouldn’t advise asking, let alone shouting at them.
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The only winning move is not to play.
How about a nice trip on a train?
Depends. How’s the Amtrak chess bot?
Underfunded and constantly side-tracked by cargo bots.
...and the Murderbots that have disabled their governor modules.
I think the Amtrak way is to bring a physical chess board and challenge human strangers over a nice cup of coffee in the observation car.
The Puget Sound ferries often have a partially-done jigsaw puzzle on one of the tables. You can't finish it in 30m, so people come and do their part and move on. Eventually someone will put in the last piece, I guess, I've never seen it happen.
I love those. I have finished one (well it was missing a couple of pieces), between West-Seattle and Vashon, and what was better was that I contributed to the puzzle earlier on the way from Vashon.
My last visit to Seattle was in 1998 so I can't confirm this firsthand, but I would bet that when someone finishes the jigsaw, ferry staff bring out a new one.
Usually somebody just scrambles it again, but they are regularly rotated. I don’t have a precise measure, but I would guess every couple of weeks or so.
Then stop for 56 hours to allow freight to go by.
I don’t have 5 days to travel across the country.
- it’s 3 days not 5 (e.g leaving NYC Wednesday morning arriving SF Saturday evening)
- the internet connection is excellent (even in most tunnels) so you can work, have video meetings, etc, not to mention play chess online
That's 4 days traveling. Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday. Arriving in the evening doesn't mean you didn't spend that day traveling.
Let’s be realistic. I love long distance train journeys, but mainly for recreation. Being on a train for 3-5 days is pretty exhausting no matter how comfortable. I’ve done the 30 day Amtrak pass before and it was fantastic but I wouldn’t be looking forward to that if it was a work trip where I want to fly in and then get back to my family as fast as possible. There’s no way that can compare to a 5-6 hour flight+2 hours at the airport.
I did this once from Seattle. It was a good experience, but the internet connection was nonexistent along large parts of the route.
Also one way cost like $1,200.
If you're not traveling between those specific destinations it can take far, far longer. Amtrak is a joke.
Amtrak is decent on very specific routes and still an absolute joke to anyone who has used trains in Europe, Japan, Taiwan, etc, and no personal experience but I'd imagine China too. My friend takes the Amtrak route up and down the Pacific coast precisely because she's stuck on a train for days and can't be disturbed while doing boring paperwork as an anti-procrastination strategy. Although the observation cars do have great views.
People who have used trains in Japan or Taiwan - islands have never used a train that is anything like Amtrak does and so have no comparison. Even in Europe long distance cross border rail is in most cases pretty bad as well.
However if you only compare the shorter distance rail in those places to what the US has some of the other trains are actually pretty good. Even then though Chicago's trains are a better comparison than anything Amtrak offers
I mean what do you consider long-distance? Inter-railing is a time honoured tradition for European Youth, and many of my generation alone would be very familiar with economy sleepers from e.g. Krakow to Prague or Budapest.
The ICE trains in particular are magnificent, and a worthy alternative to air travel.
In Europe you need to cross a country line.
Yes people do it all the time in Europe. It mostly works. However if you follow the space at all you will see a lot of stories about things going wrong - far more than there should be. Amtrak is mostly fine in the US, but there are still far more problems than there should be.
- the internet connection is excellent
I mean, maybe you had a different experience. In my experience in the northeast , the internet service is about as reliable and consistent as the trains themselves (ie not consistent, garbage fire)
I was rather disappointed by the internet connection on the Cascades line (going Seattle --> Portland and back). As far as I could tell, they use T-Mobile for backhaul. Who are headquartered in Seattle. Yet the connection barely seemed to work for about half of the journey
boo, it's in the middle of no where along part of the route. Tmobile coverage is mainly in urban areas and along free ways no matter what slingblade tells you on the tv commercial. I don't know if you'd get any coverage on parts of that route other than wired.
Just like how sometimes when you're flying over the rockies or into canada you just don't get internets. There's still middles of no where out there. Often not very far from the freeway.
Railroads are a great place to run fiber lines, so it wouldn't be hard to set up some towers.
Also starlink.
Even tooling through places like Olympia it seemed to fizzle out
Why not trei a holiday in Sweden this yër? See the loveli lakes.
This wouldn’t bother me as much but it’s really like 5-7 days depending on freight use of the lines and they can’t tell you ahead of time what it’s going to be somehow?
Can’t bring your work with you?
That sucks.
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Some low cost airlines no longer have anything. A small fold-out tray to hold your tablet. There is Wi-Fi to access an intranet with flight information and maybe some entertainment. If you have that, you just load it up with games from your play store.
I prefer the Airbus 31x and 32x models without the entertainment systems so much more. On United the Boeing had fucking ads playing NON STOP THE ENTIRE FLIGHT and because I boarded early I'd try to turn off as many around me as possible because somehow the flying public does not mind bright flashing annoying lights in their faces for HOURS.
This is a United thing, not a Boeing/Airbus thing.
> because somehow the flying public does not mind bright flashing annoying lights in their faces for HOURS
We do. United has just positioned their economy products a hair below Delta by, in part, pulling off crap like this.
"somehow does not mind" wasn't about airline choice, it was about people not hitting the off button.
This is increasingly common in domestic US full-price airlines. It makes sense, in a way - most folks have their own devices, and the airlines save money and weight and don't have to worry about future tech obsolescence - but still makes me a bit sad.
Right? That's why I don't want a car with any system for entertainment, beyond generics like speakers. The car is ideally going to last 25+ years, by which time that shit will be obsolete. The software won't be upgradable, etc.
> but still makes me a bit sad.
I'm still sad the movie projectors are gone from the planes, also the little curtains for the windows, and the carve at your seat prime rib service.
The thing I really wish domestic airlines would take away is reclining seats in economy. Nothing good comes from having them.
Same. I most recently flew Frontier and despite looking really spartan, it was actually super comfortable. And no reclining to fret over the whole flight.
Most budget carriers are going this way.
Indeed - I don't generally fly on US low cost carriers, but regularly used to fly on EasyJet in Europe, and the non-reclining seats were just more pleasant for everyone.
I've long enjoyed both Alaska's and Southwest's version of this.
Last I flew AA inside the US, I could watch the entertainment content on my own device via the on board wifi. This was great.
> getting absolutely crushed into a tiny cube by ... the airplane seat itself
Perhaps this is the real reason why they call themselves "Delta".
Yeah...I know some delta pilots and apparently the inflight computers were sometimes spending more time playing chess than flying the plane...
You have 30 minutes to move your cube
this is a beautiful zeugma you have here.
bravo
