High-income job losses are cooling housing demand

jbrec.com

152 points

gmays

an hour ago


154 comments

stego-tech 42 minutes ago

Can confirm via my own experiences. Had a job in a SV firm, and paid just barely enough to try and get on the housing ladder. Four years and a 40-60% price increase later, and I got laid off without managing to successfully buy a home.

Since the layoffs, I’ve taken a sizable paycut (~$75k TC) to make ends meet with whatever I could find, but kept a pulse on the market in case things turned around. Locally, rents have gone down by ~$100-$500 a month (depending on when you renew) with one to two months free rent, while home prices have finally stopped rising. Homes are staying on markets longer, and bidding wars have dried up. I get about one to three price cut messages a day from Redfin, though nothing in my area or price range post salary cut.

Unfortunately, I don’t expect this trend to continue. My landlord just introduced a new RealPage-alike to keep rents high, local developers have put a hold on new housing construction as resources get consumed for AI datacenters, and the same old red tape blocks meaningful progress in addressing availability gaps. The only real bright spot is that renters are pushing for statewide rent caps and controls with better progress than ever before, so there might be some relief in sight next election.

It’s bad out there, ya’ll.

  • gbriel 29 minutes ago

    Rent control is not a great solution long term since it reduces the incentive to build more housing which is the only real fix. It ends up making the problem worse. I could see in times of economic downturns, a temporary rent control that automatically expires to help people figure out their situation short term (moving is expensive).

    • stego-tech 2 minutes ago

      Populist rent control is an excellent motivator to get counter-parties to the table to discuss productive alternatives in a market where no outside pressure currently exists.

      There is no silver bullet solution. Rent control can be a big part of that solution, but what’s ultimately needed are a combination of policies that disincentivize the hoarding of housing as an asset class, promote home ownership itself for stability and community rather than fiscal nest egg, mandate denser housing in areas served by mass transit, tax land properly by removing caps on yearly increases, protect renters from unnecessary evictions (lack of renewals, no-fault evictions, etc), removing zoning laws on residential and commercial space (essentially reducing zoning laws to industrial vs non-industrial) to speed up approvals for construction, and get the government more active in meeting the needs of its populace through public housing programs (like Singapore does).

      It’s highly complex and nuanced. I’ve long since stopped entertaining smug clapbacks from armchair economists who aren’t involved in the boots-on-the-ground issues at hand.

    • Tiktaalik 22 minutes ago

      This is the economist theoretical consensus justification though in real life tbh I dunno if I've noticed any real difference when looking at housing development patterns across Canada where there are many jurisdictions with rent control, many without, and many with some sort of blend (ie. no rent control on new builds).

      If there is some incentive toward development in non-rent control jurisdictions I suspect it's strongly dominated by other factors.

      (ie. Montreal probably has the most restrictive rent control in Canada but it's also seeing the strongest apartment development growth)

      • shuckles 13 minutes ago
        3 more

        This comment just indicates the difficulty of making accurate conclusions based on casual analysis like you're doing.

        • doctorpangloss 6 minutes ago
          2 more

          there is actually great causal research on rent control, why would you think there isn't? it's the "credibility revolution" and someone has won a nobel prize for it.

          rent control causes limited mobility (read: displacement out of town) by 20 percent; it causes reduced rental housing supply by 15 percent:

          https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/aer.20181289

          rent control causes reduced property values:

          https://economics.mit.edu/sites/default/files/publications/h...

          sure the NYTimes doesn't talk about this stuff at all, but podcasts do, and not like, niche podcasts, this is on freakonomics, econtalk, etc.

          here's an episode of freakonomics where they talk about the exact issue you are commenting on, that people struggle with causation and correlation:

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGcu2DCm9EI

          • shuckles 3 minutes ago

            Did you write an entire comment by misreading "casual", the word I used, with "causal"? Otherwise, I have no idea how your reply relates to mine, as I didn't make any claims about the existence of such research.

      • Filligree 8 minutes ago

        People are able to move around, to some degree, so housing prices are a function of supply across most of the nation. Or at least the desirable portions.

        Rent control on the other hand has mostly local effects.

        Which means, rent control can push prices down and keep them down. There is indeed a supply reduction, and prices on average will go up—but not in the rent controlled area.

        It’s still a poor idea, but it requires centralised planning to avoid.

      • aerhardt 5 minutes ago

        I've kept hearing for a couple of years that Canada has an outrageous housing shortage, though?

    • phantasmish 26 minutes ago

      If house prices and rent being this much higher than they were in, say, 2000, relative to wages, wasn’t enough to trigger an enormous housing construction boom, I don’t think further-increasing rent or house prices are likely to do much good. Something about that “signal” is already badly malfunctioning.

      • epistasis 8 minutes ago

        The pricing signal malfunctions when homeowners and landowners control land use to such a degree that regulatory constriction stops housing. Usually this is zoning as the primary blocker, but there can be other blockers too.

        One of the problems with rent control is that it pushes the class politics so that renters with housing act more like landowners than they do new tenants, and they conspire to also block housing, because people are change averse, even if they don't mind the change afterwards. This hurts any tenant that needs to move due to things such as becoming an adult, finding a new job, starting a family, getting a divorce or ending a relationship, etc.

        Rent control is great as a tenant protection to prevent evictions via rent increases, but it is only a short term protection for tenants otherwise, and can hurt tenants greatly if there's not enough building.

      • crooked-v 22 minutes ago
        2 more

        The lack of construction is mostly to do with most major US cities just not allowing enough construction. You can see the contrast with the handful of places like Austin that do allow construction, where rents have consistently dropped year-to-year even though the population has increased significantly.

        • reactordev 15 minutes ago

          This. It’s NIMBY politics at the local level. Go to your county/city board meetings and ask for plans.

    • mistersquid 8 minutes ago

      > Rent control is not a great solution long term since it reduces the incentive to build more housing which is the only real fix.

      In California (and SF in particular) rent control applies to housing older than 15 years and owned by corporate entities.

      How does rent control applied as it is in California disincentivize building? I would think that building would be incentivized by rent control because newer housing stock would be exempt from rent control.

    • Spartan-S63 16 minutes ago

      I find that rent control is a good idea in theory, but leads to a lot of deadweight loss. As a former renter, what I really wanted was a predictable cap on rent increases. For folks who are long-term renters, without controls and predictability, their only option would be to move every few years, which is incredibly disruptive.

      From my understanding, European countries tend to have restrictions on what lease renewals can look like and with declining home ownership (and ownership being priced out for many), I think we should look at European models for real solutions to our housing crisis.

      • standardUser 12 minutes ago

        This is an important distinction. Most "rent control" laws are intended to be "rent stabilization" not outright price fixing. Their goal is to prevent insane swings in rent happening too quickly, which disrupts families and local economies (and even infrastructure development).

        But the worst/most aggressively laws are always used as the examples, skewing the conversation to edge cases and ignoring the fact that these laws can and do take hundreds of different forms.

    • orochimaaru 25 minutes ago

      RealPage is gaming rents against tenants. It’s artificial rent inflation by algorithms. I agree on rent control. But unless realpage is controlled and regulated rent control is the only option.

    • bcrosby95 20 minutes ago

      In SF rent control only applies to buildings that are like 40-50+ years old. Yet people still complain as if it stops new housing. If you combine this with the idea that rent control raises prices for everyone else, you'd think people would be knocking down the doors to build: artificially high rents for decades.

      • shuckles 11 minutes ago

        Rent control absolutely causes a reduction in supply: there's a reason rent controlled buildings have apartments in poor condition that owners do not renovate (so a reduction in quality supplied) and many are held off market or converted to owner occupancy through condos and TICs (so a reduction in quantity supplied). Not to mention the units underused by long term tenants who maintain them as secondary residences.

    • whatshisface 25 minutes ago

      If the price without collusion is $X and the monopoly pricing behavior raises it to $(X+1), you can cap it at $X without causing any problems.

    • ryanmcbride 22 minutes ago

      You're making quite a few assumptions

    • crooked-v 23 minutes ago

      And for some hard data, here's a meta-study on the subject: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S105113772...

      > [A]ccording to the studies examined here, as a rule, rent control leads to higher rents for uncontrolled dwellings. The imposition of rent ceilings amplifies the shortage of housing. Therefore, the waiting queues become longer and would-be tenants must spend more time looking for a dwelling. If they are impatient or have no place to stay (e.g., in the houses of their friends or relatives) while looking for their own dwelling, they turn to the segment that is not subject to regulations. The demand for unregulated housing increases and so do the rents.

    • standardUser 16 minutes ago

      > Rent control is not a great solution long term since it reduces the incentive to build more

      It is exceptionally rare for new construction to be subject to rent control laws, unless they utilize special tax breaks or government subsidies. It does nothing more than slightly inconvenience the investor class, who usually aren't thinking past 15-20 years anyway, when rent control laws might theoretically impact their investment.

  • 4fterd4rk 30 minutes ago

    You say rents are going down... but you want rent control? That's one way to ensure rents will never, ever go down. Every landlord will charge the statutory maximum.

    • Tiktaalik 25 minutes ago

      Vancouver has rent control and rents are going down.

      Though I think the likely dynamic that you're seeing here is rent growth of new build apartments is stalling and reversing, and on renewal with new tenants rents are being revised downward as there is more competition.

      https://www.ctvnews.ca/vancouver/article/rent-prices-falling...

      I expect that amongst apartments with long term tenants rents are still creeping upward. But that's fine. The point of rent control is to smooth out volatility. Rents can still go up, but the goal is to avoid sudden 150% increases etc.

      • BJones12 4 minutes ago

        > The point of rent control is to smooth out volatility. Rents can still go up, but the goal is to avoid sudden 150% increases etc.

        Is it? I mostly see rent control maximum increases below the inflation rate, suggesting a different goal (appealing to voters?). If it were just to eliminate extreme volatility I think we'd see more 5/10/20% increases and less 1/2/3% increases.

    • gopher_space a few seconds ago

      As opposed to the status quo where rents never ever go down and landlords charge the literal maximum?

    • Hacktrick 28 minutes ago

      >RealPage

      This monopolistic pricing is a massive part of the issue. Hopefully the case the DOJ brought against them is progressing well. They've essentially created a cartel of landlords trying to squeeze you for every single penny.

    • Groxx 28 minutes ago

      As opposed to now, where they charge the maximum they can get away with, while also colluding with each other to raise prices? Yes.

  • JoshTriplett 27 minutes ago

    > My landlord just introduced a new RealPage-alike to keep rents high

    You should get in touch with your state AG, and point to the precedent for this being considered illegal.

    • yieldcrv 26 minutes ago

      RealPage just settled with the feds, and that settlement only includes data collection to determine if its collusion in the future

      So I would say anyone in the present is out of luck here

  • monero-xmr 35 minutes ago

    [flagged]

    • jacquesm 34 minutes ago

      You are mistaking your own opinion for a generalized truth.

    • varenc 31 minutes ago

      If you're currently renting, and expect to keep renting for a long time, state-wide control does seem in your interests?

      It might ultimately depress new construction and certainly isn't good for landlords, but makes sense to me a renter would want rent control.

      • JuniperMesos 26 minutes ago

        Unless you expect to be renting in literally the same physical house, state-wide rent control isn't in your interests.

      • shuckles 27 minutes ago

        No, because rent control isn't portable and most people's housing needs change over time. The person who can hold onto a house for 20 years straight is the outlier.

    • jwilber 33 minutes ago

      You work in tech and are somehow convinced working on a blockchain app is a good thing? We should make employees pass a basic economics test!

throwaway_0a3we 4 minutes ago

We (me and my spouse) made an offer for a small condo and then next week company started the layoffs. Luckily we were not in that position where we spent all our savings and ended up in a position where paying mortgage would have been a huge challenge. It's been a year, have a job but uncertainity is very high. Loosing a job now means finding the next one is not very easy and no certainity that it can be a matter of month or two. We made a decision that since we have enough to pay for the downpayment and enough to pay a year of mortgage, we would not go and buy a house in Southern California. It is better to live in rented property but not safe to be in a position where you loose the property.

bravetraveler 34 minutes ago

I've had a high-income job (career?) for two decades... and while I'd love a house, the realized demand is zero. The thumb remains. Case in point, the RTO fad. I personally know at least three executives who were forced to move after building new homes.

lvl155 an hour ago

Boston is seeing some headwind especially from slowdown in biotech, the main driver of growth over the past decade or so. Rents are also down. However, worth noting supply is still constrained especially if you exclude replacement-ready homes.

  • stego-tech 40 minutes ago

    Can confirm, this is where I’ve spent four years trying to buy a starter (2BR/2BA) home in on a single income. The biggest problem in older markets is that most housing stock is of appalling quality, requiring another five to six figures of work to get into a modern, habitable shape - unless you do the work yourself, which most can’t while they also hold down a FTE gig and deal with the return of urban commuting.

    It’s bad.

    • phantasmish 18 minutes ago

      A lot of lower-end housing spends some years in the hands of people who can’t afford to keep up maintenance, and/or are too old to keep up with it well (… or to keep up with cleaning). As a result, it’s all but ruined by the time someone else gets a crack at it.

      • stego-tech 7 minutes ago

        Yep, and a lifetime spent moving every few years (and my obsession for details and desire to understand how everything works) means that I can see the chasm between what properties are actually worth versus what folks are asking for. I’ve seen some really pricey nightmares these past several years ($650k for a 1400sqft home with knob-and-tube electrical wiring and an honest-to-god fire bucket in the basement next to the oil heater!), and I cannot afford to take such extreme risks on the most expensive purchase I’ll likely ever make in my life.

        It sucks.

  • ghc 19 minutes ago

    Yep. Recently tried to sell my 2BR/2BA in Boston. Exactly 2 people visited over 3 months and several open houses and price cuts. Realtor said it's the same across the board for 2BR/2BA because the pool of entry-level buyers dried up with layoffs.

    After I switched it over to a rental listing I was able to rent it out within 3 days at a significant profit. Another unit in my building rented similarly fast at a similar price. I know it's just anecdata, but it doesn't feel like the rental market is cooling down at all.

spike021 17 minutes ago

I'm teetering on the edge of being able to afford a small condo (a small SFH would be nice but not as much supply) in the Bay Area (SF).

However, I keep thinking about how someone I know was laid off last year only two months after buying their first home.

I'm a SWE making OK money here but not FAANG/unicorn-level, so it's tough to imagine buying and then being on the hook for a mortgage without a job even with some savings.

  • OptionOfT 14 minutes ago

    I was laid off 35 days after closing.

    Absolute hell. Now, thankfully we didn't over-extend, and live by the at-least-6-months-of-savings.

    We made it through, but just writing this down makes my heart rate spike.

  • harmmonica 3 minutes ago

    I hate to repeat this old adage, but in case it helps to see it here: if you've been wanting to buy something, and you see yourself staying in the area and the place itself for many years, and you have some savings buffer if things go south, then buy. Don't do it because you want to magically have paper equity gains in the next 12 months. Do it because you like the place you're looking at, the neighborhood it's in, and because you have enough funds in place to get through a downturn if a layoff happened.

    Of course I say all of that and it's good to know what could happen if a terrible downturn does happen like in 2008 (even the nicest Bay Area hoods prices dropped 25%+).

    Last thing, single family houses, especially in the Bay Area, are typically more insulated from price drops (insulated not immune). If you can afford a small single family then it might be worth it, especially if there's expansion potential (either for yourself or the next buyer if you decide to move on). And even better if there are some cosmetic problems that are tractable because let's say you do get laid off there's nothing like building some sweat equity in the downtime.

    Just my two cents having gone through similar in the past.

  • klysm 16 minutes ago

    You could probably afford some really nice property not in the bay area then.

    • TuringNYC 14 minutes ago

      >> You could probably afford some really nice property not in the bay area then.

      Sure, but doesn't really help if the job is in the Bay Area.

mvkel 28 minutes ago

There's an interesting housing arbitrage happening right now. Townhomes are still selling for over asking, but single family homes -- ones that older, middle-management types would live in -- aren't receiving competitive bids.

mcdonje an hour ago

But will lower demand coupled with still high interest rates actually lead to reduced housing prices?

  • bluGill an hour ago

    Somewhat, but remember that house prices are sticky. If I can't sell my house and get into one with a similar value (both price and features) with near net zero change in my debt and payments I'm likely to stay put. Of course once I decide to move I'll be looking at cheaper and more expensive places, but if I can't break even on a like for like move why would I move? I'll just ride this market out for another 10 years. (note too that my mortgage is less than 3% - one more reason moving anytime soon would be a terrible thing for my life)

    If my house is worth less than what I owe then moving (selling short) can make sense.

    Houses are not just an investment for most people. There are investment factors, but they are also the place you live. Thus most people cannot just sell or not - they also have to consider where will they live next if they sell. Even if I knew exactly where the bottom would be odds are I'd still not sell because I don't have options to live elsewhere.

    • toomuchtodo 44 minutes ago

      ~4M homes transacted in 2025. Price levels will decline over time, it's just who has to sell first. Life/forced sales (divorce, death, relo, downsize for costs, etc) are up first vs irrational sellers pining for historical price levels. Foreclosures are rising (especially in Florida, taxes and insurance going up), but not materially imho (yet? tbd based on how the economy holds up, all real estate is local).

      Delistings Jump 28% as Sellers Pull Homes Off Market Rather Than Settle For Low Prices - https://www.redfin.com/news/delistings-jump-sellers-pull-hom... - November 25th, 2025

      Foreclosures Rise for 8th Straight Month—These States Have the Worst Rates - https://www.realtor.com/news/trends/foreclosure-increase-att... - November 14th, 2025

      Pending Home Sales Slip As Would-Be Buyers Wait For Lower Rates and Economic Clarity - https://www.redfin.com/news/housing-market-update-pending-sa... - November 13th, 2025

      (real estate market participant)

      • bluGill 12 minutes ago

        Of course there are always people who need to sell for whatever reason. There are a large number of people not in the market who otherwise would be, but that doesn't mean nobody is in the market.

    • KerrAvon 20 minutes ago

      Do note that, even if the math works out such that the bank doesn't actually lose money, a short sale remains on your credit history for the subsequent seven years, which makes it very difficult to buy another house during that period. It's not something you want to do if you can avoid it.

      • bluGill 9 minutes ago

        I said CAN not will be worth it. Details of your particular situation matter, for some they should hang on while for others the credit hit is too small to matter. You need accountants and lawyers to advise you based on your exactly situation not internet commenters.

    • fred_is_fred 44 minutes ago

      > If my house is worth less than what I owe then moving (selling short) can make sense.

      I believe this varies by state but I thought in some states the lender can come after you for the difference and in others you can just walk away (albeit with a credit ding).

  • matsemann 22 minutes ago

    What we've seen in Oslo, Norway, is mostly that the market slows down. Those that get lower offers than what it previously was "worth" don't sell. So in the prices graphs it's mostly flat, but then with lower sales total. So it kinda "hides" that things are worth less as it's no transaction. And people don't dare buying before selling, so lead times are quite long.

    And then they stop building new stuff while prices are low, so demand will keep prices stable, and when the interest gets lower again prices will probably skyrocket since it's not been built enough in the meantime.

  • dr_kretyn an hour ago

    Talking from the Vancouver perspective where we have a similar situation - yes, house prices are going down. People list houses with the same price as 3-4 years ago but most close below the asking price.

  • ekjhgkejhgk an hour ago

    > But will lower demand coupled with still high interest rates actually lead to reduced housing prices?

    One theory says that either lower employement causes lower demand and therefore lower interest rates OR lower employement causes the FED to lower interest rates to stimulate spending, and in EITHER case the response to your premise of "low employement + high interest rates" should be "interest rates will come down", and separately "low employment implies low demand implies house prices will come down".

  • francisofascii 37 minutes ago

    There is also "Return to Office" polices that may be buoying housing prices near the urban core.

  • etchalon an hour ago

    It has in several cities, including Austin, where I live.

    • ortusdux an hour ago
      • Workaccount2 30 minutes ago
        2 more

        What's fascinating to see is that around me the wealthy towns are seeing 6-7% annual appreciation whereas the lower middle class towns are in the 2-3% range.

        K-shaped economy and all that I suppose.

        • taeric 15 minutes ago

          Ish? Look into towns that didn't have a high reliance on tech. In particular, look for ones that didn't ride the rollercoaster of really high wages that a lot of tech drove and is now flattening off.

          Looks like shipping is also an industry that you probably don't want to track on this search. Other than that, places that saw modest wage growth saw similarly modest housing cost growth. And haven't seen it fall back, yet.

    • TrainedMonkey an hour ago

      I feel like 50% of that is explained by the luxury housing build out bubble in Austin specifically.

      • etchalon 44 minutes ago
        5 more

        We just overbuilt everything. Condos, houses, etc. There's a lot of inventory no matter what type of housing you're looking for.

        • qball 24 minutes ago
          2 more

          No, you just happened to build appropriately because a certain subfaction of the population weren't able to pass the typical laws that would stop building.

          The housing shortage was created by regulation and it's foolish or selfish to pretend otherwise.

          Austin is unique in that most of the harmful self-serving conservatism-as-in-block-and-deny-all-development that city people usually to do is constrained by the rest of the state, and as an obvious result arguably has the highest standard of living in the entire world.

          • awesome_dude 10 minutes ago

            kind of.. and kind of not

            regulation /tends/ to be introduced because builders are misbehaving (bad materials, bad workmanship, building in flood zones, etc), but the bigger problem is NIMBY who then use those laws to prevent other people building in "their" neighbourhood

        • cantaloupe 29 minutes ago
          2 more

          The academic consensus is that there is a housing shortage, not a surplus. Perhaps there is a local surplus in undesirable areas, but that isn’t true in cities or nationally.

          https://www.brookings.edu/articles/make-it-count-measuring-o...

          • nemomarx 13 minutes ago

            Austin and Texas in general have less housing restrictions than other places wrt zoning and regulation, so they could plausibly have a surplus. You can only really speak locally about any of this because location determines the market

  • duped 35 minutes ago

    I'm seeing homes in my neighborhood sit on the market for 3-4 months before dropping prices and finally selling, about 20-25% off the original listing.

websiteapi 26 minutes ago

If this - "High-income job losses are cooling housing demand" is true, doesn't this mean UBI would never work?

  • TuringNYC 12 minutes ago

    >> If this - "High-income job losses are cooling housing demand" is true, doesn't this mean UBI would never work?

    If UBI were national, it would work beautifully, because depending on the UBI amount, it could allow people to finally untether geographically. You could spur a rebalancing of irrational demand in HCOL cities due to jobs away from HCOL to LCOL

  • nilamo 13 minutes ago

    I don't see how one follows the other.

    On the one hand, less high earning employees seems to logically indicate that large purchases would also go down.

    And on the other hand, a program to give everyone a little eating money would never have been able to pay for a house, anyway.

narcindin 32 minutes ago

Sad to see Healthcare and government employment growth outpace everything else. If we're all nurses or regulators who will build our country?

  • phantasmish 8 minutes ago

    Healthcare employment’s guaranteed to keep rising until they’ve soaked up all the would-be inheritance from the Boomers.

    Millennials are a large cohort, too, so it may stay steadily high for a good long while after that, after perhaps a small dip for X. Depends how much money they have for the healthcare sector to scoop up. Savings-at-same-age has been really bad for them relative to boomers, so we’ll see. May see healthcare employment shrink even as need (sans the dollars to back it up) grows, next time a demographic “lump” gets old.

francisofascii an hour ago

The post doesn't have housing data to back up the claim, but the job growth by city is interesting. HCOL cities like DC and SF in the red, as you would expect. Government jobs down in DC is expected, but mostly green in other cities? What is Philly and New York doing right?

mwkaufma 13 minutes ago

Stating a 20-year trend like it's a new development :P

monkeydust an hour ago

Any evidence if this is global trend in developed countries?

  • nemomarx an hour ago

    All of the examples in the article seem to be the us, so I think they're only looking at local trends.

    Are other developed countries firing people in the same way rn?

harmmonica an hour ago

A drop in housing prices might be the only silver lining if an actual recession hits (whether the official statistics will actually admit to a recession is debatable of course).

That said, even if housing prices drop materially and eventually bottom it will provide little opportunity for "normal" folks to buy in if they're jobless. Will be interesting to see if Fed interest rate cuts translate to mortgage rate cuts, and whether those rate cuts lessen any price drops.

I've said this before on here, but the historical price-to-income for housing has been something like 4x. Today it's 7x (that is as insane as it sounds). A long way to revert to the mean unless you really think "this time is different."

  • al_borland an hour ago

    Housing prices dropping aren’t so good for those who own homes. It is also likely there will be a feeding frenzy of investors snatching up homes. I had a hard time buying a few years ago, because investors kept out-bidding me with all-cash offers. I had to raise my price target to move outside of their impulse buy range, which I was not too happy about.

    • tossandthrow 4 minutes ago

      The dynamic here is that investors accept 3% return for housing because there are no good alternatives.

      The expected return is considerably higher now, this should mean that houses should be traded at PR at around 20 again (as opposed to upwards of 30 when there was no better investments to be made).

      Investors will likely not be an issue as long as we don't go into zirp again.

    • jeremyjh 38 minutes ago

      So lower prices mean higher prices?

    • skybrian 32 minutes ago

      How do you know they’re investors?

  • mcny an hour ago

    What I am worried about is won't building new homes slow down to a crawl or stop completely if the r word is confirmed?

    • jfghi 44 minutes ago

      I think with the amount of corporations and existing homeowners buying homes that the demand is strong enough to keep prices high no matter what happens. There are billions of dollars set aside to gobble up homes in the event of a price drop. In my area, 20 percent of homes are owned by investors and realtors delist homes that don’t sell as opposed to drop price.

    • HPsquared 35 minutes ago

      On the other hand, it'll get cheaper to build new houses as material and labour costs should fall. Might be hard to get finance though.

  • rockskon an hour ago

    It's 7x these days largely due to the 0% interest rate environment we had for so long.

    • HPsquared 34 minutes ago

      I wonder what it is in "monthly cost as a fraction of monthly income".

  • shuckles 31 minutes ago

    People say this a lot, but it makes no sense to me. A recession comes with lower incomes and wealth for everyone, so affordability doesn't change for the average person. It only increases it for those who had a short position in their asset allocation, but that's just investment outperformance which you can have even without a recession.

  • jacquesm 36 minutes ago

    Be very careful what you wish for. That's not much of a silver lining.

  • standardUser 44 minutes ago

    Desirable metros seem to have very sticky prices. San Francisco, where I lived for 15 years, turned into a grotesque caricature of what it once was, but prices barely budged (and for most of that transition, they surged wildly). Sure, it's no longer the single most expensive rental market in the country, but it's still one of the highest despite quality of life degrading massively and even a big decline in population.

georgeburdell an hour ago

Anecdotally, in my corner of the Silicon Valley, I've been looking to trade up homes from my 7/10 district to a nearby 10/10. Over the last year, I've seen the comparable properties in 10/10's rise about 10%, while my 7/10 has gone down about 5%. Both areas are very short commutes to high tech.

  • varenc 26 minutes ago

    Talked to a real estate agent recently and she mentioned a similar trend in the bay area.

    "Luxury homes", $3M+, are hot right now with prices risings. Whereas lower cost non-luxury homes are seeing less growth. It's a weird world.

    • blackjack_ 2 minutes ago

      Things are visibly cooling up here in Marin, houses are actually sitting on the market (even just at the end of last year houses were generally scheduling offer dates and picking the best one). Some of this is just seasonal cooling, so I'm wary to draw any larger conclusions... but I'm seeing a lot lot more `for sale` signs than I'm used to.

    • nemomarx 19 minutes ago

      K shaped economy I guess? More and more spending is driven by the top, so maybe housing that aims to capture that still sells fast but more normal housing struggles

potato3732842 an hour ago

The illustration is misleading because it forces things into three buckets, two of which are colored to indicate "not good". But still, that bottom right corner of the graph is telling.

Also pretty disgusting to me that healthcare is "growing faster than normal" across the board. You'd think it'd be "growing the normal rate" at least somewhere. It's not like population is growing faster than normal across the board. Isn't 20% of the GDP enough for an industry that's fundamentally a cost center of society? Wars have been fought over less.

  • jerlam 35 minutes ago

    The elderly are on Medicare, and health care providers know they can treat much more aggressively when the government is picking up the tab. Despite the fact that in a purely economic sense, it is more important that children and young adults get health care.

    When I went to the doctor about fatigue, the advice given to me was to stop exercising and take a break.

    When my father went to the doctor about fatigue, they gave him a full blood panel and scheduled a cardiologist and respiratory therapist visit.

  • trollbridge an hour ago

    An aging population combined with people generally being a lot less healthy (eg look at obesity or diabetes rates) means we either let people die off, or else spend more and more on healthcare.

  • bluGill an hour ago

    The large baby boomer generation is getting old, and thus their costs will go up just by nature of old people needing more. They are also realizing that health is the largest factor in how long they will live (not to mention that they likely started smoking before people realized how harmful it was - most have long quit but with unknown damage done. There are other choices that they often made that are now questionable)

    Which is to say I expect spending to go up just for demographic reasons of large numbers of people starting to care. Don't confuse this for thinking all is well with health care costs.

  • bell-cot an hour ago

    Healthcare is a non-negotiable way to extract money from people. And the industry is swimming in opaque complexities, IP, monopolies, monopsonies, and sweetheart regulation. Why the h*ll should they limit themselves to a mere 20%?

  • doctorpangloss an hour ago

    What’s the maximum price you’d pay for a cure to a rare, fatal pediatric disease?

    Answer this question, and you’re on the journey to the solution to the problem you are talking about. Tell me some BS why the question doesn’t matter or is wrong or whatever, and discover why “Dunning Kruger” is at least part of the answer.

    • potato3732842 an hour ago

      >Answer this question, and you’re on the journey to the solution to the problem you are talking about. Tell me some BS why the question doesn’t matter or is wrong or whatever, and discover why “Dunning Kruger” is at least part of the answer.

      I posit that the people who hold an ideology, moral compass, world view, or whatever else you want to call it, that permits the question to even be framed in this way are a root problem exacerbating many other problems in society, healthcare likely being one.

      I don't know what the "solution" is but the fact that ~1:5 dollars in this country is spent on maintenance of the human body is just wild and likely unsustainable or indicative of some gross error in how we measure such things.

    • Spivak an hour ago

      From experience from my peers getting pregnant it's the cost of a "selective reduction" (which can be 1 to 0). Newly pregnant friends are spending $$$ on tests in utero to weed out children with such things.

      • doctorpangloss 19 minutes ago

        well, you didn't answer the question, but it sounds like you are saying $40,000? how much do you think Orchid costs? do you think it even works?

        $40,000 cap would exclude all the therapeutics targeting rare disease being developed today. not just pediatric. all. it would exclude tirzepatide, which costs $250,000 to $400,000 for most people. if you want to cure obesity. and by the way, congress expressly banned paying for all weight loss treatments, not "just" treatments "that work", from medicare.

        > Newly pregnant friends are spending $$$ on tests in utero to weed out children with such things.

        do you think pregnancies at age 40 compared to pregnancies at age 20 are more expensive, or less expensive? define expensive, yes? and what price should the government pay? should it pay 40 year old mothers different than 20 year old mothers?

        it's too bad that i'm being downvoted, since you're engaging with the question and hopefully it is really illuminating why there are no easy answers to capping healthcare costs. it starts with people, especially people who think of themselves as being very smart, being unable to specify a max price they are willing to pay, which is conceding that a market-based solution can exist but be very deeply flawed.

jacquesm 37 minutes ago

Crashing the economy is of course going to have knock on effects. I don't think anybody should be surprised by this?

Housing is essentially a bottomless pit when the economy is good, it can sink any amount of money because it is an absolute necessity. So when people have money they'll use it to bid against each other for a scarce resource. But when the economy pauses or even starts to shrink then that surplus evaporates and one of the first indicators that this is happening is the demand for housing. Usually the result will be some price adjustments and after that it is business as usual. But if the cuts go deeper then there may be more substantial effects.

The only thing that is holding the US economy afloat right now is the fact that there are still a couple of levers of power that Trump hasn't gotten his fingers on. When and if that happens I fully expect things to go into freefall.

  • dboreham 21 minutes ago

    Having been shafted in three housing boom cycles, I'm somewhat eagerly awaiting the crash this time so I can buy something at a discount.

engineer_22 an hour ago

We're in a recession.

  • QuercusMax an hour ago

    I saw HUGE ramen displays yesterday at Safeway, including some of the less common flavors like blue (Soy Sauce, formerly "Oriental") and yellow (Creamy Chicken).

    I can't find the blog post from the last major recession where people were talking about all the crazy flavors you only see when the economy is REAL bad.

    • bluedino an hour ago

      I was always taking noodle bowls to work. Fill with water, microwave, enjoy at my desk. A dollar or two.

      Couldn't believe how many people would go to the sushi restaurant at the base of the building and spend $25 on lunch a couple days a week. Yikes.

      • vunderba 40 minutes ago
        2 more

        Noodle bowls are usually pretty high in saturated fat (between 8-15 grams on average). I can't imagine eating them daily.

        At the very least you should consider steaming some vegetables (also very cheap), slice them up, and mix'em in to get some moderate nutritional value from it.

        https://www.health.harvard.edu/heart-health/whats-your-daily...

        • sph 16 minutes ago

          Saturated fat is not the problem. Fat with carbohydrates in the same meal is.

          The problem with ramen is the amount of carbs and little nutrition which only spikes your insulin and makes you hungry 2 hours later if your metabolism is not great, not saturated fat in a vacuum. I wish popular knowledge about food had moved on from the misguided research of Ancel Keys already.

      • sph an hour ago
        2 more

        Wheat in a watery soup flavoured with monosodium glutamate isn't very nutritious compared to rice and fresh fish. There's a reason ramen costs a dollar or two compared to sushi.

        • bluedino 17 minutes ago

          What about fried shrimp, bbq sauce imitation crab, mayonnaise and cream cheese? Because that's what most of the 'sushi' is at that place.

      • kulahan an hour ago
        3 more

        It's not nearly as filling, but I saw a character on TV smashing up their noodles and pouring in the powder, shaking the bag, and eating them like popcorn. I've become incredibly addicted.

      • foogazi an hour ago
        2 more

        > Fill with water, microwave, enjoy at my desk

        Getting lunch with coworkers once in a while doesn’t hurt

        • bluedino an hour ago

          Sure. And there's also shared lunchroom areas you can take your own lunch to.

      • mystifyingpoi 33 minutes ago
        2 more

        Are they doing it on company time? Because it might just be true that both you and your sushi eaters get net result 0 from this meal.

        • bluedino 24 minutes ago

          You don't get an hour lunch?

      • lo_zamoyski 15 minutes ago

        You don't have to spend $25, of course, and you can make lunch. But microwavable noodle bowls, especially at your price point, are terrible for your health.

        Why do people cheap out on food, but spend that money on less important things? We're talking about your health here! It's even worse when people with high incomes do it.

      • BizarroLand 40 minutes ago
        3 more

        Unless you're making them yourself or at least customizing them a good bit, noodle bowls are pretty unhealthy food.

        Nothing fresh in them, high sodium, freeze-dried ramen or noodle bowls were originally survival food and should be treated as such.

        Not saying don't eat them, and I don't know your socioeconomic background or anything, but if you want to eat them or have to eat them, try to add a little something extra into them.

        A cup of shredded cabbage and/or a few cherry tomatoes and/or a half cup of onion slices and/or an egg, things like that should be cheap and easy to add and will help dilute the sodium and add a healthy component to the meal, and your kidneys and heart will thank you for it.

        • vel0city 15 minutes ago

          I don't disagree with a lot of what you said (need to really dress up the ramen to make it even close to healthy) but FWIW ramen isn't usually freeze dried it's just fried until fully dried out.

        • lo_zamoyski 7 minutes ago

          > I don't know your socioeconomic background or anything

          It sounds like a habit drawn from poverty, but frankly, you'd have to be really poor to reach for something like this daily (I'm talking extreme survival situations that even the homeless don't typically face). Those with low income can still get much better food at a reasonable price. They don't need to shop at Whole Foods.

          I'm not sure you can even eat like this for very long either. The malnutrition is that bad. Expect high medical care costs or an early death down the line.

          Penny wise, pound foolish.

      • ssl-3 42 minutes ago

        "Hey, I heard you like eating sushi. Have you ever tried having a bowl of par-cooked microwaved noodles, instead? It's basically the same thing!"

        Edit: The last time I worked in an office building, I had a limited time for lunch. I could have brought in ramen, or purchased something from the decently-stocked break room coolers. I could have sat at my desk or gone outside or eaten in the break room.

        And sometimes, I did do those things.

        But what I quickly discovered was that what I wanted on my lunch break was primarily a break.

        I wanted to get the hell away from that place, surround myself with something completely different, and spend time relaxing my brain before getting through the second half of the day.

        So I often went out to get lunch.

        But because time was limited, it had to be nearby, and my options were thus very limited.

        So I ate a lot of bargain-menu Wendys and tacos from Qdoba because I could get there, and eat, and relax a bit, and be back on time.

        If there were instead a sushi place right downstairs, I'd have probably hit that once or twice a week, too. It would have had a higher monetary expense, but my brain would have thanked me for the extra time to unwind and I'd have had a better and more-productive rest of my day and come home in a better mood than I might have otherwise.

    • gruez 44 minutes ago

      Are you sure they're not trying to capitalize on the ramen craze from kpop demon hunters?

  • pinkmuffinere an hour ago

    Someone please tell the stock market, I moved my investments to be more risk averse and it hurts to watch the green line go up.

    • thatfrenchguy an hour ago

      There is generally no point in doing this, keep a constant asset allocation that match your risk appetite, otherwise you're just playing the casino.

      • caminante 33 minutes ago
        2 more

        Timing the market is bad, but I'm reading "risk averse" as selling equities and buying bonds.

        The problem is that this recent equities run has been extra terrible for more conservative 60/40 portfolios [0].

        [0] https://www.morningstar.com/economy/6040-portfolio-150-year-...

        • dboreham 16 minutes ago

          > selling equities and buying bonds

          There's an intermediate option: sell high P/E stocks and buy lower P/E stocks with dividend paying history. There are ETFs designed for this purpose too.

    • anonymars an hour ago

      They say time in the market generally beats timing the market

    • stego-tech 34 minutes ago

      You and me both, but working poors like us should be investing for long-term gains, not short-term returns. I put my money into bonds and international indices because I want to be better protected when the AI CAPEX bubble pops here, but I have no idea when that’ll happen.

      We can’t time the market, but we can protect the scraps we’ve accumulated at least.

    • outside1234 an hour ago

      The market can stay insane longer than you can stay insolvent.

      Also, its possible that the market thinks job losses are good (aka that AI is replacing jobs)

      • reactordev an hour ago
        3 more

        The brutal truth…

        Stocks go up, wages and income go down, things keep on keeping on because AI has quietly replaced you.

        • iwontberude an hour ago

          Except in reality this isn’t happening outside of press releases. God y’all drank the koolaid.

  • rvz an hour ago

    We were already in one following the tech correction since Nov 2021. [0]

    The problem here is some waited for too long to be told we are now in a recession, then some politicians tried to redefine it.

    But that is nothing compared to what will happen in the next 5 - 10 years. Nothing goes up forever. The only hint is that we need to prepare before 2030.

    [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29508238

  • micromacrofoot an hour ago

    objectively we're not yet, but things are certainly weird

    • andrewstuart2 an hour ago

      Objectively, I'm not sure we can reliably say any longer, given how much pressure has been put on formerly objective reporting agencies to conform to this administration's narrative.

    • mistrial9 an hour ago

      bifurcation, and more