Can Dutch universities do without Microsoft?

As a former medical and scientific illustrator, learning a software package (Photoshop or GIMP) really isn't as crucial as learning principles and practices of art, design, and graphics. Color theory, negative space, composition, etc., are critical to production and apply to any media one chooses to work in: oil on canvas, pen and ink, or computers.

The other issue is access. Again, from an art/graphics/design perspective, costs associated with proprietary software can limit some students from even participating in art/graphics/design programs. Adobe Creative Suite is US$69.99/mo or US$840/yr.

Look at Blender. No reason why that success can't be repeated.

It's not the job of a university to prepare you for the workplace. That's the job of the workplace. I'm sick of industry outsourcing their jobs to public institutions.

It's the job of a university to teach cutting edge research

I didnt!

Nobody is talking about VS code though.

VS Code is fine.

I meant people often complain that unis do not teach them things that are useful in "real world"

Windows indeed is real world.

You'd have to pay me to use windows and office, which is exactly what's been happening at work, essentially.

The top of the stack loves Outlook/Exchange. They want that calendar experience and that's what they're going to get.

Corporate people who decide what services to buy don't care about what the employees think about those services.

And regarding Microsoft, it's easy: paying for the whole package is much easier in terms of contract overhead and with MS the discounts are quite advantageous as soon as you increase the width of the package.

Short term and if you only look at the bill, it makes sense.

Long term, forcing your teams to work with shitty services is a terrible idea.

kerberos solves the problem that you can have short one time tokens using your password.

Add public key infrastructure support, make ldap the default store and you got AD. Even better, you can throw all the OAuth crap down the drain.

now, starting services with a password becomes an issue of booting the machine.

Ultimately Kerberos is used to authenticated basically everything in a Windows on-prem environment and in a way that is largely transparent to the user. Silent SSO is a very nice feature. Even if you're doing OIDC or SAML, those protocols do not define what is actually performing authentication at the IdP which, again, ultimately ends up being Kerberos if you're people are on-prem. So whatever your feelings are about Kerberos as a protocol, it doesn't matter if that's what Windows uses. And again, it cannot be obsoleted by other protocols. Even if you're using a newer fido thing like passkeys or client certs or whatever, ultimately the device has to be authenticated to get that passkey or cert or whatever it is installed into the authenticator app of the device. So Kerberos is king on prem. MIT Kerberos on Linux is not really compatible with Windows Kerberos in ways that cause problems that are not solved by re-writing Kerberos in another language. More important issues have to do with sharing credentials and getting trust info and other such things.

> Kerberos is not a great protocol

Understatement of the week

sssd is a dogpile of dogcrap. I have 15 tickets on github about fixing their manpages.

and you really need to read the kerberos book before picking up sssd.

simplify gssapi, for one. single authentication and authorization: submit on slurm? ask kerberos + ldap. can i upload to this service? as kerberos + ldap. Policies applied on this computer? ask kerberos + ldap

i may be naive a bit, i'll accept that, but I really like how AD works (which is essentially kerberos + ldap)

I tried to set up network file sharing with NFS the other day and it was like pulling teeth. You need Kerberos if you want to map user names instead of user ids and still have some security.

Ultimately I gave up and used samba instead, but it does seem like there's a big gap in linux offerings for "home/small business network file sharing" with shared auth

Changing the default would cost sales and increase support costs.

They've apparently had a corporate philosophy of obfuscating the underlying system from the end user and deliberately inhibiting their ability to learn how it fits together since at least the early 2000's.

I feel like the current ignorance of the average computer user was a deliberate outcome they've been working towards for more than 20 years. As someone who has been using computers since the late 80's, I find their current offerings harder to use than ever.

Because outside of a handful of nerdy tech companies, all small businesses need to use Microsoft Office. From there, it’s a no brainer to stay in the MS ecosystem and use Sharepoint etc…

For a small business without a dedicated IT team, simply hire a IT contractor to harden the tenant (MFA etc…), have them review every six months and be done with it and focus your resources on running your business.

>The usa couldnt handle Aghanistan

Reddit level argument ignoring the fact that the US's goal there wasn't to win anything since there's nothing of value there, it was to funnel taxpayer money to the military industrial complex for 15 years.

Pretty sure the US could have glassed Afghanistan off the map if they really wanted but probably wouldn't have been very popular decision.

Most European countries barely have a standing military to defend themselves, they're completely dependent on the USA for defense through NATO. And their leadership is so docile and complacent that I can't see them being able to muster up a strong resistance to any incursion, most likely if there was an actual invasion of The Hague they would let America do what they need to and try to return back to business as usual as quickly as possible. Again, they're not the types to think beyond the status quo.

In fairness, the US has a pretty good record when it comes to invading continental Europe. They already have troops and nukes on the ground in the Netherlands...

And they didn't exactly struggle with the invasion parts of Afghanistan and Iraq, nor in the getting of high status targets in those theaters.

Arguably, the ICJ in the Hague is actually a result of one of those successful deployments of US forces on the continent.

Still not sure what can be done about the car battery ingestion challenges, though.

i think it's one of those things where how/if they will do it doesn't matter, it's a "we make the rules" thing

if the situation is such that a US -> Netherlands land invasion (with somehow independent armed forces?) is imaginable, you're past the point of the US-ICC legal relations mattering (i'd go so far as to say there's no sovereignty to speak of here :p)

Threat of invasion from Russia doesn't seem to be doing it. China is too far away. The US? Half of Europe might actually side with them.

Well, at least in the Netherlands, that's not true. Our elected representatives have been rather.. volatile over the past decade. I liked the boomers better.

If Universities are anything like other large public/public-adjacent organizations, the bulk of the in-house IT department was long since replaced by Microsoft resellers posing as IT. It’s insidious.

The trap of Microsoft is long contracts and setting up dependency. In many cases it was a big undertaking to get the current setup, now try convincing anyone to tear it out.

This. Not long ago, every organization had their own email server. It's only in the last 10-15 years or so that gullible IT managers drank the cloud kool-aid.

Does China actually "force" things to be done? As far as I can tell, in the realm of technology at least, the government mostly just sets direction and then lets private capital do its thing, albeit without letting power concentrate in a way that subverts government.

Well written. I hope one day the united states of europe is a real political entity, burying the stupidity that is fragmented national interests.

I knew plenty of office workers managing just fine using OpenOffice 10-15 years ago.

Today people are much more reliant on real-time collaboration, polished cloud and mobile experiences. Fractionalized open source software has a harder time competing with this than file based boxed software workflows of the past.

Coming from ex-USSR, I can assure you that shortages and shitty quality was not because of closed garden. But because of politics (and corruption) first. And lack of meritocratic natural selection.

Many factories were building crap or wrong stuff just because somebody high up in the Party found it convenient for some reason.

Digital can probably be fixed easier. Energy independence on the other hand was a more stupid thing not to target (like Germany closing nuclear reactors, then buying gas from people that thought they could do whatever they want...).

on the other hand, the USA got mass surveillance normalized, and an entire generation with serious emotional disturbances due to social media.. Many indicators of required cell phone IDs and airport biometrics still on the way. Is that a "win" in the long term?

What could go wrong with more centralization of power…

https://reclaimthenet.org/eu-council-approves-new-chat-contr...

I can't fathom why you would give one parlement all the power. This is the root issue of America right now, individual states have less and less power every year.

>> "Europe" is, unlike the US, not a single entity > >It really needs to be, though, that's kind of the crux of it. > >Federate or die off, it's time to get rid of old tribal thinking. We're all Europeans.

OK, let us play this game...

China, Japan, Taiwan and the Koreas "really needs to be" a single entity. Theyre all East Asian.

USA, Canada and Mexico "really needs to be" a single entity. Theyre all North Americans.

Nigeria, Algeria, Somalia, and so on "really needs to be" one entity. Theyre all Africans.

It is obvious where this is going, and it is not some place most people want to be. You never explained the rationale behind the need you think there is. You just stated your opinion. But your rationale would be much more interesting to hear.

Europe is too heterogeneous. What you see as europe is not what others may see as europe.

Intellectually, I think people agree with that. But I think the weight of history works against it. When you have a history filled with war, and intense competition...

I agree with you but until we speak the same language, this is going to take a while. I am Dutch, speak Dutch, French, German, Spanish and Portuguese (and Mandarin) rather well, but I speak mostly English to prove a point as I believe we should pick a language (does not have to be English but seems the most obvious). I won't see this in my lifetime, nor my childrens or grandchildren.

With easily accessible and massive funding by the EU for issues like this would get a lot of uniting done without more federating. I easily can point out 1000s of people who would spend their time working on EU sovereign/open source office 365, ai, aws etc etc the rest of their working lives and beyond, but it needs to make money and there is no money. Both investor money and EU money are incredibly hard to secure here for these type of efforts. Not impossible but very hard.

I think this is the logical next step, but I feel like it won’t be based on the EU but assembled entirely parallel by some of EU‘s members, and this seems consequential to me.

It's been tried a number of times. It has never worked out well.

Please god no.

As Swiss resident coming originally from EU country, how to put it politely... fuck that. EU does some good but its top politicians are absurd obscure career bullshitters (Leyen, who the heck likes her and whom she represents? Certainly not eastern EU, she represents everything wrong with EU though. She is so lost and yet untouchable, ie still pushes for destruction of whole European automotive industry while playing her political games. EU parliament is a behemoth of corrupt ultra bureaucracy and so on. Certainly not a leader for whole continent).

For poor countries in the east, EU is salvation, it dumps billions every year on them that are promptly stolen by cleptocratic governments (I know this darn too well as coming from one such place and literally everybody there knows this, you guys are fools for allowing this for decades). Yeah, all you westerners, you don't even bother to check whats happening with your truckloads of money as long as politicians don't stick out like Orban or Fico. And even if they do, all that happens is some PR statements and things go on as usually.

For Swiss for example, it would be a massive downgrade in many aspects - sovereignty, general freedom, performance, agility in ever-changing world, freedom of self-determination, and obviously economical power and wealth. They themselves voted in public vote to not join, same for NATO.

EU should be more like Switzerland, that I honestly believe is the only general recipe how long term old continent can compete and be peer to behemoths like US or China. Its not about this topic or that program, but general working and mindset of society. But good luck that western EU egos would ever accept that somebody found a more effective and way more sustainable way of functioning within European dominion. So its a path to stagnation, I see it as inevitable.

Harder working, more clever countries not laying comfortably deep in their unsustainable social systems, bureaucracy and corruption will catch up and move far beyond EU in upcoming decades, and those further like US will keep pushing beyond whats possible for EU. Maybe bigger war with russia would actually change that mindset not sustainable in 2025, but it could also mean collapse and utter catastrophe. EU is weak and slow and lost, in times when its really bad idea.

Tell that to the right-wing nutjobs who all want their "<country code>XIT"

That doesn't feel true. I've founded several companies and talk to many other founders in the Netherlands. I've never experienced or heard of government regulation (though often somewhat annoying of course) being an inhibiting factor.*

Funding opportunities are nearly absent though. And it seems that buying 'local' software has never been a consideration (until now). On the contrary: I've seen many cases where EU/national products were pushed out of the market by US products that came later and were (subjectively) worse. They were way better funded though. And, because of that or because of being American, they were considered to be more serious/trustworthy companies. Also, they could afford to flood the market with dump prices, until local competition was basically gone.

*: Okay, with one exception: hiring employees involves a lot of work and risk, and doesn't allow for fiscally attractive stock plans.

This is a popular meme, but compared to the combined regulation of 27 member states, the EU as a whole is doing great.

What exactly is overly bureaucratic in the EU?

I as an European get the feeling people usually hate on the EU just because it dares to interfere with local legislation. But that's its job. And usually the EU interferes for a good reason. Usually because member countries falling back to only thinking about themselves and forgetting that we Europeans are in this shit together.

> you can't do that

It's good that you can't call sparkling wine that's not from the Champagne "Champagne". It's good that you can't screw over flight passengers the way they do in the US. It's good that you can't annoy customers with phone power sockets that change with every model.

When I hear about actual examples of excess bureaucracy, it's usually on the country-level.

If that was so easy to do then they would have done it already years ago

Oh, it’s very well recognized. You can check the Mario Draghi report or even recent comments by ECB‘s Christine Legarde. I think it’s mostly reluctance to make big structural changes that seems to be the issue right now.

Surprisingly, from France, Hen I work for US companies, the American employees were on holidays more often than the french ones.

For example, here "sick leaves" days are not considered normal holidays that have to be taken in the year to not be lost.

I disagree about that being the root cause of the issue. It's true that in some countries there is a sort of permanent work contract that essentially means once you are in, you cannot be fired; that's obviously bad. In my experience, work ethic, or perhaps, bargaining power, is generational, long story short: young people have to work much harder/longer for lower pay than boomers, due to the lack of leverage of their generation and overall market conditions.

Agree with your second paragraph, just disagreeing with the generous work/life conditions part, that's something that was enjoyed by boomers (through country-level debt, even!), but new generations work harder for a salary that in US terms looks like scraps.

That might be your feeling, but it isn't reality. It comes instead from EU companies not even being in the same galaxy as US ones when it comes to revenue, size, and market impact. There is literally no comparison. It's not like the major leagues compared to the minors, it's like the major leagues compared to tee-ball.

https://www.voronoiapp.com/markets/Comparing-the-Largest-Com...

Deepmind is another good example, as is ARM.

What’s the alternative?

WTO says US gave illegal aid to Boeing

https://www.transportenvironment.org/articles/wto-says-us-ga...

You're talking about business workflows, and that makes sense. But this article is about universities, they have far less Microsoft-specific document editing workflows, compared to established enterprises. At least, that was my experience when I was a part-time teacher at a university - LibreOffice did the job just fine for me. And although other professors used MS Office, none of them did anything fancy (they didn't have any custom VBAs/macros, no disgusting database-like Excel spreadsheets etc) - I can see these people easily switching to the oss options we have today.

Of course, every university and every person is different, but it's not an impossibility unlike businesses.

My university uses Teams and the browser version is missing some features. For example, I can't see the files uploaded by the professor. That tab won't load.

Thanks for the tip, it might work if I can figure out where the certificate is stored on Windows because I am forced to go through an application first.

The application I mentioned: https://www.certsign.ro/en/products/eidas-trust-services/pap...

Also back on Windows the website I needed to access didn't work with Firefox so I had to resort to Chrome sadly but maybe I'll have better luck now.

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction!

There's a huge difference between running an email server and some additional servers for thin clients -- all traditional stuff -- versus running an entire private cloud that redundantly stores the many many petabytes for your 40,000-person university, and all the web servers for the office software. Keeping it secure, keeping it updated, and having a live failover site if there's a fire or flood in your main data center that takes it out for weeks or months.

If it were that easy and cost-effective to do, large corporations would be doing it too. But there's a reason they're not.

They probably paying a tenth of that as big edu users. What you quote are the commercial starting price for a basic-ish license.

If you look at the numbers that way, open source usually looks like a slam dunk.

The problem is coordination issues: actually getting people and orgs to look at it that way and spend the money that way, rather than just waiting for someone else to fix the problem.

they already do that, it's called SURF, and they host a nextcloud instance called surfdrive.

I guess the question then becomes: what happens if some future US government pressures Amazon to revoke the license. Unless and until there's a good answer to that, it'd still be better to develop something locally.

If I run your software, you can have no operational control, but you can sneak a root kit or some kind of stuff I dont want to have there

They must have something like this for China, right?

Whoops, the European company just got bought out by a US entity. Tough luck! [1]

Is this part of the spec? If not, it's as loose as a tent. And by "part of the spec" I mean "all your assets will be forcefully nationalized the second you or a parent company of yours becomes less than X% European owned", where X is well above 50.

[1] https://www.dutchnews.nl/2025/11/dutch-looking-into-conseque...

> Proton represents Valve's failure

No, it represents a market opportunity. WINE (a European led project) effectively makes Win32 and DirectX into Linux APIs. It works well for games. You can bring those games to Linux with less effort. And Valve can offer SteamOS (based on Arch Linux, also a European led project) for less cost.

You don't need Visual Studio. JetBrains has nice, cross-platform IDEs and they're a European company to boot:

https://www.jetbrains.com/

How will Microsoft or the US government stop anyone from using those Linux contributions now that they've been contributed?

They're GPL licenced. They're open source. They're freely available.

They're sanction proof.