Oxfordshire clock still keeping village on time after 500 years
bbc.com

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165 points

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1659447091

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9 days ago

92 comments

alfanick ・ 6 days ago

I live in a small Swiss village. We have two churches, they ring their bells every hour (number of dong-sounds is equal to the hour). But, they're slightly out of phase, so you can hear two separate churches' bells.

And one of the churches also rings their bells every 15 minutes (1-ring for each quarter). On top of this at 6:00am it rings a whole rhapsody of sounds for whole 5 minutes - "wake up people, time to go to work on a field!".

Initially it may be annoying, eventually you just get used to it, in the end you actually learn to figure out the time from the bell sound and make use of it.

  • nandomrumber ・ 6 days ago

    Does the speed of sound have anything to do with them appearing to sound non-synchronous?

    • idontwantthis ・ 6 days ago

      Shouldn’t there only be two spots where it is synchronous ?

      Edit: I was imagining intersecting circles for some reason. All places not equidistant would hear them out of sync.

  • cogogo ・ 6 days ago

    I live in a neighborhood in Boston with a couple of big churches. The hourly bells are useful to teach the kids how to tell time. Especially when out and about. Thankfully none of the bells wake us up but I do appreciate them.

  • eleveriven ・ 5 days ago

    There's something kind of grounding about being able to tell the time by sound alone, like your own analog smartwatch

Daub ・ 6 days ago

FYI… before the railways it was quite common for one village to have a different agreed ‘time zone’ to villages just a few miles down the road. This time was defined by the clock of the village church. It was the railways which put an end to this.

  • Doctor_Fegg ・ 6 days ago

    Services at Oxford’s cathedral (Christ Church) still begin at five minutes past the hour because of this.

    • euroderf ・ 5 days ago

      Is it also the source of European university classes starting at quarter after ?

  • eleveriven ・ 5 days ago

    Standardized time is such a weirdly modern invention when you think about it... before trains, no one really needed it

    • Someone ・ 5 days ago

      The general population didn’t need it, but there was considerable interest in having a form of standardized time as far back as 1530.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_longitude#Transport...:

      “The first to suggest traveling with a clock to determine longitude, in 1530, was Gemma Frisius, a physician, mathematician, cartographer, philosopher, and instrument maker from the Netherlands. The clock would be set to the local time of a starting point whose longitude was known, and the longitude of any other place could be determined by comparing its local time with the clock time.”

madaxe_again ・ 6 days ago

Prepare your ship of Theseus arguments now, gentlefolk, for that mechanism does not look like a 16th century one to me.

The frame, perhaps, but the rest of it looks Victorian at the very oldest, more likely from the 1960s restoration, when people were not so much into conservation as they were into modernisation.

I don’t think this detracts from the picture of it as a very old clock, as it has almost continuously functioned as a clock since its inception - if anything, it makes for a nice palimpsest of horological technology, and speaks of a continuity of care that is markedly rare.

  • LeoPanthera ・ 6 days ago

    “I remembered once, in Japan, having been to see the Gold Pavilion Temple in Kyoto and being mildly surprised at quite how well it had weathered the passage of time since it was first built in the fourteenth century. I was told it hadn’t weathered well at all, and had in fact been burnt to the ground twice in this century. “So it isn’t the original building?” I had asked my Japanese guide.

    “But yes, of course it is,” he insisted, rather surprised at my question.

    “But it’s burnt down?”

    “Yes.”

    “Twice.”

    “Many times.”

    “And rebuilt.”

    “Of course. It is an important and historic building.”

    “With completely new materials.”

    “But of course. It was burnt down.”

    “So how can it be the same building?”

    “It is always the same building.”

    I had to admit to myself that this was in fact a perfectly rational point of view, it merely started from an unexpected premise. The idea of the building, the intention of it, its design, are all immutable and are the essence of the building. The intention of the original builders is what survives. The wood of which the design is constructed decays and is replaced when necessary. To be overly concerned with the original materials, which are merely sentimental souvenirs of the past, is to fail to see the living building itself.”

    ― Douglas Adams, Last Chance to See

    • jjmarr ・ 6 days ago

      This is the whole point of the "banana taped to wall" art that everyone mocks.

      Part of the work is a certificate of authenticity and a detailed guide for taping a fresh banana to a wall (it must be exactly 1.6 meters above the ground). Because the banana rots, this gives you permission to recreate the banana taped to a wall as needed for display.

      It's brilliant because it makes you question what the "essence" of a work of art is. Literally anyone can tape a banana to a wall. But you don't have the artist's intent allowing you to do so.

      • detaro ・ 6 days ago
        ・ 2 more

        But it's also like much other installation art for decades. Art piece as instructions and a "license" is nothing new.

        • satvikpendem ・ 6 days ago

          My other favorite piece of conceptual art is An Oak Tree, a glass of water placed on a shelf at some height. The piece claims itself to literally be an oak tree.

    • cam_l ・ 6 days ago

      There was a Japanese architect, Arata Isozaki, who wrote about this idea. Specifically about the Ise shrine, which is famously rebuilt every 20 years. It had been popularised as a piece of architecture on par with the Parthenon.

      He rejected the comparison with western monuments as the Ise exists as a project of continual renewal. Not just in practice, but socially, religiously, and also in style and detail. It is a ship of Theseus, but where the whole ship is replaced, it is not even necessarily the same ship, and besides, the ship is just the tangible form of the communities of teachers and craftsmen and fisherman which exist around it. It is the lost wax part of the cast.

      (Isozaki was interestingly also a metabolist along with Tange and Kurokawa, which I guess I think is, in a tangential sense, related.)

      https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262516051/japan-ness-in-archite...

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ise_Shrine

    • asicsarecool ・ 6 days ago

      I wrote a nastygram to the Smithsonian after they replaced all the canvas on the original wright flier.

      Maybe Douglass would have approved. That makes me feel slightly better

      • johnmaguire ・ 6 days ago

        From Wikipedia:

        > Work began in 1985. [...] The wooden framework was cleaned, and corrosion on metal parts removed. The covering was the only part of the aircraft replaced. The new covering was more accurate to the original than that of the 1927 restoration.

        Also of note:

        > In 1910 the Wrights offered the Flyer as an exhibit at the Smithsonian Institution, but the Smithsonian declined, saying it would be willing to display other aeronautical artifacts from the brothers. Wilbur died in 1912, and in 1916 Orville brought the Flyer out of storage and prepared it for display at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.[30] He replaced parts of the wing covering, the props, and the engine's crankcase, crankshaft, and flywheel.

    • Fluorescence ・ 6 days ago

      Maybe the same can be applied to the human patterns too because this bit made me feel a bit sad:

      "mechanised winding system, ending the requirement for somebody to climb the narrow, winding staircase each day to the clock room to do the job by hand"

      It feels like something has been lost even if I don't know what. It's not that I want the job but we might be modernising and automating away human purpose in the world. There is something about someone visiting the mechanism daily that feels like it gives it life. An act of observation. There may be some practical sense to it e.g. spotting problems and what you "feel" in the mechanism as you manually wind it.

    • TheOtherHobbes ・ 6 days ago

      It's not the atoms, it's the pattern of the atoms.

    • gostsamo ・ 6 days ago

      Very nice novel about one of the fires as well by Yukio Mishima.

    • Epa095 ・ 6 days ago

      What a beautiful quote!

  • sandworm101 ・ 6 days ago

    >> for that mechanism does not look like a 16th century one to me.

    What parts dont look 16th century?

    Many aspects look identical to this, albeit smaller, clock from the 16th century. Note the pin holding the frame together, an exact miniature of the town clock.

    https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co531/1...

    It certainly does not look like the mechanisms seen on the streets of a 16th century farming village, but even today the most high tech devices are generally out of public view.

  • AStonesThrow ・ 6 days ago

    Forsooth! "Palimpsest of Horological Technology" shall heretofore be the moniker by which I dub a rag-tag band of madrigal performers, and/or the Macguffin from Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny!

    Growing up in San Diego, we often visited Presidio Park, site of the San Diego Mission, or was it?

    It was only 17 years ago when I managed to untangle the relationship between the Mission de Alcala in the valley and the Presidio on the hill.

    I told my friend from Spain that we could go visit, and she exclaimed "a prison? why visit a prison?"

    And one or more buildings of the Presidio has been completely rebuilt, as replicas, as a museum and tourist attraction. And everyone told me the grass mounds outside were burial sites or something.

    But as a child I didn't get it; the building just looked like an old mission from the photographs and they had nice exhibits about what life was like tending crops and winepresses. Also, there is an observation point on the third floor, where you can see the Pacific Ocean and all of Mission Valley.

    • 1659447091 ・ 6 days ago

      > Mission de Alcala in the valley

      A long time ago, and for a couple years, I lived next to the stadium there and regularly bought meat from the Iowa meat farms butcher -- I did not even know Mission de Alcala existed or the areas history until today! (thanks for the post) And I drove past it all the time. These days thats the kind of historical site I travel around to visit; some variation of the phrase youth is wasted on the young comes to mind.

  • AStonesThrow ・ 6 days ago

    Microsoft has faced this issue with Windows licensing. I would say that it was noticeable with Windows XP.

    If Windows was licensed to a particular hardware computer, how would you define that computer? Being a common practice to upgrade RAM, disks, PCI cards, and even CPUs, and Windows could enumerate every component on each boot, how much different would a computer need to be, before the Windows license is invalid?

    And people were tripped up by this, after replacing their motherboard. Windows had a threshold of changes where it would balk and demand reactivation.

    • gherkinnn ・ 6 days ago

      I remember calling Microsoft and asking for a licence key for my pirated XP, claiming I updated my motherboard. Good times.

      • dessimus ・ 4 days ago

        Odds are the CSR's KPIs are Average Call Time and Resolution on First Contact, so as long as you give them plausible deniabilty by claiming motherboard change, it allows them to quickly resolve and close the call vs forcing you to have to call back with documentation. Besides forcing you to buy a retail license likely didn't add a nickel to their paycheck, so why start a fight with the customer that will only make the call longer and possibly require escalation.

  • reaperducer ・ 6 days ago

    Prepare your ship of Theseus arguments now

    As soon as I saw the headline, I knew this HN cliché would be one of the first comments.

    Your body has replaced all of its cells several times already in your lifetime. Are you not the same person?

    • nosianu ・ 6 days ago

      Okay... so I'm going to do some nitpicking on the non-essential fringes of the argument if that's okay?

      > Your body has replaced all of its cells several times already in your lifetime

      Not true. Cells like neurons, heart cells, skeletal muscle cells are permanent (with minor caveats).

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_cell

      • lukan ・ 6 days ago
        ・ 4 more

        Thank you! I always doubted that claim, but never looked into it.

        • bbarnett ・ 6 days ago
          ・ 2 more

          You can take a flatworm, cut it in half, subject it to an electric field so it grows two heads.

          Later, without the external field, you can cut it in half and both halfs will grow a second head.

          It's not genetic expression, but the electric field of the flatworm that has changed permanently and is directing cell growth.

          So if your entire body has its own field, that retains its uniqueness, and can even cause cell specialization what then?

          https://www.newscientist.com/article/2132148-bioelectric-twe...

          “A totally normal-looking worm with a normal gene expression and stem cell distribution can in fact be harbouring a [body plan] that’s quite different,” says Levin. “That information is stored in a bioelectric pattern – it’s not in the distribution of tissues or stem cells, it’s electrical.”

          • lukan ・ 6 days ago

            That is worth a submission and a HN thread for itself I think, thank you.

        • adastra22 ・ 6 days ago

          But at the same time, all the atoms of the cells in your body (except for bones) have been entirely recycled.

    • krisoft ・ 6 days ago

      > Your body has replaced all of its cells several times already in your lifetime. Are you not the same person?

      That is the Ship of Theseus argument using other words.

    • madaxe_again ・ 6 days ago

      Living beings are patterns of energy and information that operate continuously - the matter is not the stuff - hence when you die, you die.

      With a clock - the matter arguably is the stuff, as you can stop and start it at will.

      • lazide ・ 6 days ago

        If you lose consciousness (sleep, or trauma) and then awake - are you the same person before and after? How can you know?

    • praptak ・ 6 days ago

      > Are you not the same person?

      If you want to prevent a philosophical debate, that's a very risky question to ask :)

      • nosianu ・ 6 days ago

        There is not much to discuss. It's not like the universe forces you to use one particular definition for some word. You can decide to use whichever you want for "same person", and somebody else may use another one. There is no higher power to make one of you more right. Human power helps (if you control the books and the lesson plans and the grading of tests, you kind of win).

    • dekhn ・ 6 days ago

      Not all the cells in the body are replaced in your lifespan. But yes, identity is not specific to the constituents of the original object if there is a continuum of changes.

  • jaccola ・ 6 days ago

    What is the Ship of Theseus?!

    Your argument on parts being replaced is interesting though... Reminds me of Triggers broom.

    • qw ・ 6 days ago

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

      > The Ship of Theseus, also known as Theseus's Paradox, is a paradox and a common thought experiment about whether an object is the same object after having all of its original components replaced over time, typically one after the other.

pm215 ・ 6 days ago

I couldn't find anything with better image quality, but youtube seems to have some 2014 footage of the clock in action (so pre restoration work): https://youtu.be/ix0IxTqgavE

  • Oarch ・ 6 days ago

    This has an almost hallucinatory quality

    • londons_explore ・ 5 days ago

      The video probably had to be transmitted by morse code.

smitty1e ・ 6 days ago

"You really need to take the upgrade. Enough centuries have passed."

"Oh, all right."

> A modification also saw the installation of a mechanised winding system, ending the requirement for somebody to climb the narrow, winding staircase each day to the clock room to do the job by hand.

  • 867-5309 ・ 6 days ago

    sounds like a wind-up

    • 867-5309 ・ 6 days ago

      the clock or the staircase?

Archelaos ・ 6 days ago

Somewhat related: I was impressed when I once visited Salisbury Cathedral, where there is a restored clock vom 1386 on display. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salisbury_Cathedral_clock

  • londons_explore ・ 5 days ago

    I wonder if old stuff like this lasts longer when operating or when sitting idle in a display?

    Operational means there is wear and someone must occasionally do maintenance etc.

    Being on display unmoving obviously has no wear, but also more chance of being forgotten about, rotting, etc.

layer8 ・ 6 days ago

"In terms of accuracy, it's pretty accurate."

What more could you want?

  • Rebelgecko ・ 6 days ago

    Ironically the article currently says ""In terms if accuracy, it's pretty accurate."

mistrial9 ・ 6 days ago

pre-Renaissance the mechanical clock was a show of power for Christian civilization.. one of the many benefits, along with literacy and the written word in all its uses, of the Christian society versus others.. and versus others it was.. on the edges of the Christian world were raiding tribes, marching armies and slaving of all kinds, from the great Central Asia all the way into modern France, from the East, Vikings from the North and African continental peoples from the South. The Christian world sometimes came by the peace of the Savior, and also by the Sword, chain and taxes.

Clocks are very impressive.. useful.. and now there is almost no escape from them? What was lost?

This is a particularly impressive and useful clock. The benefits to the town are manifold. In these times, it might be worth examining their shadows, as well.

  • verisimi ・ 6 days ago

    > Clocks are very impressive.. useful.. and now there is almost no escape from them? What was lost?

    What was lost is control of time for the individual. Time is such an externalised concept now, we can barely conceive of an internal, natural sense of time.

  • dylan604 ・ 6 days ago

    > Clocks are very impressive.

    I mean, once you have a clock, anyone can tell time. I'm more impressed by those that can tell time by time of year and position of celestial objects. It's December and Orion is 20° above horizon so it must be close to...

    • Gibbon1 ・ 6 days ago

      A secret is to use the great costco shopping cart relative to the north star.

      • adastra22 ・ 6 days ago
        ・ 2 more

        Hah! That is absolutely my new name for that constellation.

        • dylan604 ・ 5 days ago

          does that make the one connected to Polaris a shopper in training cart?

mattgrice ・ 6 days ago

"In terms if accuracy, it's pretty accurate." :) LGTM (sign off on PR)

2earth ・ 6 days ago

This blew my mind. I'm a mechanical engineer from Wantage, where this clock was made, (but had no knowledge of it!)

I wrote a blog post reverse engineering (including a detailed CAD model) and discussing a very similar but nearly 200 year older clock at the (relatively nearby?) Salisbury cathedral. It's a good chance to reflect on longevity and design philosophy. Seems relevant to share!

https://2earth.github.io/website/20241003.html

mike-the-mikado ・ 6 days ago

It may be in Oxfordshire now, but only since 1974. For most of its life it was in Berkshire (until they decided to that the county should follow the M4 motorway, rather than the river Thames).

  • bbarnett ・ 6 days ago

    So for clarity, it didn't move.

rvz ・ 6 days ago

Maintained systems built to last as long as 500 years is what engineers should be aiming to build, especially striving for both quality and to be highly battle tested in hardware.

This one didn't break 25 years ago with the Y2K bug and it won't break in 2038 either.

A vibe-designed version of this however could not even last 4 years (AI introduces leap year bug) or even 6 months (clock will break going back and forth adjusted for DST)

  • Someone ・ 5 days ago

    > This one didn't break 25 years ago with the Y2K bug and it won't break in 2038 either.

    It definitely broke in 2015. FTA: “In 2015, one of the hammers used to strike the six bells came away and fell into the mechanism, jamming it and silencing the clock.”

    > A vibe-designed version of this however could not even last 4 years (AI introduces leap year bug)

    Irrelevant, as this clock doesn’t show dates.

    > or even 6 months (clock will break going back and forth adjusted for DST)

    That, this clock suffers from, too.

  • pqtyw ・ 6 days ago

    > This one didn't break 25 years ago with the Y2K bug and it won't break in 2038 either.

    Well yes but it had to be manually wound and adjusted by someone on a very regular basis to continue functioning.

    It's much more efficient than a human having to look at a sundial every 15 minutes and ring the bells manually but effectively the same thing, not an automated system.

    > clock will break going back and forth adjusted for DST)

    So you just fix it manually twice a year? Seems like a significant improvement : D

    • TheOtherHobbes ・ 6 days ago

      >Well yes but it had to be manually wound and adjusted by someone on a very regular basis to continue functioning.

      So does most software.

      • pqtyw ・ 6 days ago

        Yes, that was kind of my point.

rajnathani ・ 5 days ago

For those non mechanical engineers like me, such clock towers which were based on gravity (verge escapements (thanks TIL via ChatGPT)) require rewinding manually ever so often - thus this isn't a clock which continuously worked for 500 years obviously.

cnewey ・ 6 days ago

Well now, I never expected to see my village on Hacker News. I can actually see this church from my bedroom window - and as if by magic the bells just started ringing 9am!

  • justincormack ・ 6 days ago

    Used to have family there, saw the clock once many years ago.

eleveriven ・ 5 days ago

That's such a wholesome reminder of how deeply intertwined timekeeping used to be with daily life and community

swayvil ・ 6 days ago

I like the scale of that machinery. Very manageable.

  • dylan604 ・ 6 days ago

    Yeah, it's interesting to think of a clock with no precision gears, but since there's no hands it opens up methods with less complications /s

collyw ・ 5 days ago

Sundial on a building near my place still keeping the time as well. No idea how old it is.

sagarpatil ・ 6 days ago

Older than United States.