I appreciated this. Lots of solid advice and positive and pragmatic thinking here about aging in the context of being a programmer, and more generally too.
I'll take this opportunity to make a related pitch regarding back pain in particular, which can become more of a problem if you are sedentary as so many programmers are: if you have chronic back issues you owe it to yourself to at least check out Stuart McGill's Back Mechanic (https://www.backfitpro.com/books/back-mechanic-the-mcgill-me...). It's very much in line with this post; in particular the idea that you just have to deal with back pain as a fact of life is--for most people--not the case. Please take a look if you are struggling with back pain. The process he lays out takes work but it's based on solid research and experience and it has helped me tremendously.
Endorsing Back Mechanic as a great book for fixing back issues, at least for my own experience. Referenced a copy after I first threw out my back. Took months of regular McGill exercises to get back to normal (could barely even walk for a week). It was extremely comforting to know that my back pain problems were fixable, and regressions could be solved with more careful adherence to the exercise regime. I am as active as I have ever been 7 years later, and now I understand the warning signs when I have been mistreating my back.
Edit: For the past few years I've also been sitting in a https://qor360.com/ chair when I'm working. I've found I've had fewer warning niggles of incipient back pain during the periods where I regularly sit in this kind of active chair. I could only tolerate it for brief periods at first but the adjustment period was worth working through.
Have you compared it to sitting on a yoga ball?
I've tried a yoga ball a few times before and found them to be too unstable / uncomfortable. I haven't compared since starting to use the Ariel 2.0 (for almost 3 years now), but I will say that I enjoy the postures that I can adopt while sitting on what is essentially a fancy stool. A yoga ball wouldn't have the same height or allow me to rest my feet with my legs at the same angle. It's probably important to note that the active sitting chair requires a desk with an adjustable height so you can bring the desk up to the correct level for the chair.
Programmers are much more likely than the general population to have hyper-mobility. I am so hypermobile that none of the traditional ergonomics techniques, including physical therapy, work well enough and I have resorted to using a reclining chair. The reclining chair has worked out great and I really wish I had tried it much sooner. I had not considered it earlier because all of the advice I had received was that it was damaging.
Programmers are much more likely than the general population to have hyper-mobility
Boy, that one comes with a whole lot of [citation needed].
I know it really doesn't count for much but I suffer from hyper-mobility and have ADHD as well. So hey we have an n of one so far.
- [deleted]
Autism and hypermobility (e.g., Ehlers-Danlos) are highly correlated. I have both, with ADHD thrown in.
Not really an expert in the topic, and so I can't comment much on the mechanisms why, but AFAIK there's a decent body of evidence that hypermobility is significantly more common in the ADHD + Autism populations than the general public....and I don't think there's much debate that those populations are more likely to be programmers than the general public.
Haven't reviewed in depth, but here's an example to support that claim that looks reasonably credible from a quick review - for some types of hypermobility at least, 5x more likely for Adult ADHD, we're not necessarily talking some kind of small/statistical noise level difference: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34560594/
- [deleted]
- [deleted]
I strongly doubt. Why would this be the case?
Do you mean why would it be the case that a strong claim needs citation? Because it's a strong claim with no evidence (they provided some in another comment, sample size of 5...).
If you mean the claim itself, the person you responded to did not make it.
The sample is biased and intentionally so, the prior probabilities are pulled from general population statistics. Consider the likelihood of an event that should only occur 1/10K times happening 5 times in a row due to random chance, it is incredibly small.
Why is citation needed?
Elaboration may be warranted, but if you do not have the trust in the parent to provide that elaboration under his own creation, why engage with him at all? To only be willing to speak to him if he relays quotes from someone else is quite unusual, if not anti-social.
If you would rather speak to that someone else who you deem a suitable authority, why not speak to that other person instead? What do you hope to gain from using the parent as a pointless middleman? Especially when you consider that middleman untrustworthy, thus making any citations that may be provided unreliable anyway. A strange endeavour.
Did you just arrive from Mars to judge our discourse norms?
It's completely typical to expect someone who makes a surprising factual claim to back it up with evidence. You're talking to them because you think they might know something you don't, and be able to point to how they know it - or they might not, and them offering weak or non-existent evidence would show that.
> It's completely typical to expect someone who makes a surprising factual claim to back it up with evidence.
A citation does not necessarily provide evidence, it only guarantees the words of a third-party. A third-party can spout complete nonsense as well as anyone else. The request ultimately serves to appeal to a flawed assumption that a third-party's words are more valuable than the words of who you are speaking to.
Which also incorrectly assumes there is someone else's words to even draw from. HN is well known for attracting experts in their field. It could have very well been that the parent commenter is the only person who knows anything about the subject. There may not be anyone else. Even if there was, to dismiss his knowledge as the hypothetical leading expert to hear from some other random nobody doesn't make sense.
But, to give the benefit of the doubt, if we assume there is a greater subject matter expert who can give you better words than the parent to describe the knowledge you seek: What purpose does the middleman serve? Why not talk directly with the expert? You are going to get a lot more out of it. The middleman, if not a valuable party to the subject, isn't going to relay what is most useful if for no other reason than because he doesn't know what is useful. A citation remains pointless.
> You're talking to them because you think they might know something you don't
Of course. Which, again, questions why you would want to defer to a third-party? If you have good reason to believe someone knows something you don't, why wouldn't you want to hear it from them directly in their own words? As I said before, in this case elaboration is what would be valuable. A citation is not. A citation is completely useless here. While citations do have a place, asking for a citation in the middle of a conversation is a fallacious device.
> Which also incorrectly assumes there is someone else's words to even draw from.
The claim in question is that there is a prevalence of hyper-mobility among programmers.
That can only be backed by data. Data gathered from a large number of people. Even if we suppose that the claim is the result of a solo research effort --- one person did all the data gathering and analysis --- and that that solo researcher is the very person making the comment on hacker news, there are still other words that can be referenced. They are not another person's words, but that same researcher's words hosted elsewhere, giving interesting details about the research!!!
The comment, whether we believe it or not, simply contains insufficient detail to someone interested.
Don't you understand?
Indeed, it's as if you came from space to dictate alien discourse protocols to humans.
> That can only be backed by data.
Okay. But the request was for citation, not data around mobility. A request for the latter would at least carry something, albeit unless you are an expert yourself you likely won't be able to take much from it, but that is not what was requested. Still, I posit that elaboration is the better approach. If the person is, in fact, an expert in the subject they may have better ways of broaching the subject with you than dumping raws value upon you. And if dumping raw data is truly the best they can offer, that is still apt to be where they end up in their elaboration anyway, so in the worst case you haven't lost anything. Demanding that you know the best way to continue the conversation when it is you without the requisite knowledge seems foolhardy.
> there are still other words that can be referenced
Why reference when he can reiterate his own words, if there is merit in retelling what he has already told before? HN is not a Wiki trying to index historical knowledge, it is decidedly a link aggregator combined with discussion forum, with the latter being the feature that is relevant to the context. Further, this seems to imply that you don't trust the words on HN, but if that is the case why bother with HN at all? There is no utility if nothing can be taken from the words posted here.
> Indeed, it's as if you came from space to dictate alien discourse protocols to humans.
I have never seen this behaviour outside of Reddit (and where Reddit memes have leaked into HN). Humans having a discussion usually talk to each other in the present, not go back and forth pointing to quotes written in the past and likely written by a third-party. Even from my alien vantage point I recognize that as something humans would find strange. What makes you think it is human protocol?
Just an hour ago read somebody say that the California fires were caused by a combination of 5G and coronal mass ejections.
At the time I dismissed his words is not being supported by scientists or other authorities but in future I will remember your wisdom that it is "a flawed assumption that a third-party's words are more valuable than the words of who you are speaking to."
> "I dismissed his words" ... "you are speaking to"
Which is it? Did you dismiss him or did you speak to him? If you dismissed him as you claim, the quote, even ignoring how it is taken out of context, doesn't work. It explicitly refers to where there is an exchange happening.
> To only be willing to speak to him if he relays quotes from someone else is quite unusual
True, but extraordinary claims do call for some reference.
Asking for references is doesn't ipso facto show an unwillingness to speak.
The one making the claim can be reasonably expected to have more ready access to the sources of information than the one newly surprised by the claim, having already done some of the homework. (Perhaps extensively!)
> Programmers are much more likely than the general population to have hyper-mobility.
This does not seem intuitive to me. Why would this be the case?
I noticed it in general observationally and later found a generic explanation for it.
I used to do behavioral analytics and noticed that programmers tend to have a distinct clustering of behaviors.
I’m pretty sure it’s the TNXB gene, it’s been overlooked because it’s traditionally hard to sequence but modern sequencing 30x or long reads can find SNPs here. A colleague who has the same rare set of behaviors and interest as me and is also hyper-mobile had found that he has a TNXB SNP combination that should by random chance only occur in 1/10K people, I subsequently did a DNA test and found that I too had the same SNPs. I have since collected more samples from friends and colleagues who are world class in their fields and so far 5 of 5 have had the same TNXB SNPs. It also appears that in reality this combination is much more common than random chance due to sexual selection which should underscore how behaviorally impactful it is.
Hyper mobility is considered a spectrum and a theory that I’m yet to prove is that the spectrum is almost entirely down to the number and type of TNXB SNPs. And it appears that people on this spectrum are more likely to be programmers.
Consider the over representation of transgenderism in programming. That same over representation exists in hyper-mobility and I would suggest this is due to a common cause.
These conditions (hypermobilty, transgenderism, programming) are all part of the autism cluster.
That is true, I tend to use transgenderism instead of autism because the data is cleaner and that more than makes up for the smaller sample sizes. At least for the things I am interested in.
But for internet discussions I should have used the autism cluster instead.
Programmers might be one of the most autistic cliques I've seen, so this checks out. That's both a good and bad thing.
- [deleted]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypermobility_(joints)
I think everyone doubting, saying counter-intuitive etc. is making a spot interpretation of what the term means ('very active sporty person' or something).
just say double jointed - I had to look it up too.
Just got that book yesterday because I've been struggling with managing my back pain. Hopefully it'll help mitigate it.
See also https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK539720/
McKenzie's ideas helped me greatly with back pain but did not help with my neck pain I got later. After some years I discovered I had trouble in my jaw which caused referred pain to my neck and shoulders. My dentist recommended a bite guard for my tooth grinding, at which point the pain quickly localized in my jaw and slowly got better -- maybe it hurts a bit one or two days a month now.
The simplified version of McKenzie is that you have back pain because you don't have enough flexibility to be comfortable in a neutral position and your muscles are pushing against each other, it's like the pain you'd have if you used one hand to squish the fingers on your other hand. Exercises that stretch backwards like
https://www.webmd.com/fitness-exercise/how-to-do-cobra-pose
really help, although my favorite is Lowen's "Bioenergetic arch" which is terribly obscure (can't find it online except for a comment about it that I wrote on Reddit years ago!) like most of Lowen's work
https://www.amazon.com/Bioenergetics-Revolutionary-Therapy-L...
and not "destined to become widely influential" which is too bad. You stand with your feet together and put your arms straight up and then stretch backward guided by the visualization that your whole body is bending along a circle. You can do it in a standing position whenever the pain reminds you you have a problem and not have to get down on the floor.
----
Another "life hack" was that once I had tendinitis in my hands that was severe enough I thought I had to quit programming. I started doing plain ordinary push ups and the problem cleared up in two weeks and has stayed away ever since. Might not work for you but you can't lose trying it.
My wife was resentful the other day about having to lift a heavy treadmill up the stairs for a person who probably won't make a habit of it. My trainer at the gym told me that the treadmill was the most popular equipment at the gym but also the worst. My trainer introduced me to TRX and kettlebells and I felt pretty stupid because I thought kettlebells were something girls used to look like a dancer in a Kardi B video -- they are that, but they were also one of the Soviet Union's secret weapons when they were crushing everybody in the Olympics.
I told my wife that our friend would be better off with something like that and she said "she has back pain" and in my mind the answer to that is that she needs to get stronger, needs the kettlebells more than I do, just she has to start with lighter weights.
PSA: Be careful about doing McKenzie technique exercises! It made it worse for me because the physical therapist didn't do a good enough analysis! I encourage a thorough assessment that includes an MRI review of your spine first.
The link posted above mentions it as well
> Although most patients favor spinal extension, there are, however, patients who favor spinal flexion instead. For these types of patients, the repetitive extension based exercises can possibly lead to peripheralization which is the worsening of distal referred pain from repetitive motion. In contrast to centralization, peripheralization does not carry a good prognosis and is to be avoided. It is thus vital for clinicians to form an accurate assessment of the directional preference rather than assuming a patient will favor extension and thereby proceeding with therapy based on that assumption.
EDIT: Just to clarify further, the potential side effects are not just "pain". In my case, doing a cobra pose causes me to piss myself and lose feeling in my legs. This can be catastrophic to some people. Please folks, do not just go off some rando on social media telling you "X will treat your neck/back pain!". You can end up seriously much worse than you started. You need to SEE what the problem is first and only an MRI and a trained physician can tell you what is appropriate for you.
Unfortunately the results you get from doing that are pretty variable.
Not like you shouldn't go see a doc and get imaging and do all that (you should!) but every time I've gotten imaging done I've heard "you've got degeneration which is typical for somebody your age" -- my son just got an MRI for a work injury (paid for by Workman's Comp) and got told the same thing. Often your doc gives you an order to a PT and what sort of therapy you get from a PT is complete random and not evidence based.
Imaging might turn up a specific cause (maybe a tumour) but it is usually inconclusive. Studies tend to show low correlation between degeneration seen and back pain and my doc was clear it was the same when I was having serious pain in my knee.
You're right that centralization vs peripheralization is an important sign.
Your chances of getting better are still greater than if you just willynilly self-treat without the support of those diagnostic tools. Yes for the majority of people, simple spine degeneration may not be a big deal and probably easily treatable at home with stretching and strength training exercises. There's degeneration, and then there's borderline myelopathy; you sure is hell don't want to make that worse (trust me) before you get a chance to see a medical professional. Myelopathy is insidious too, it can turn into a catastrophe without you realizing. One day it might be pain, the next it could be near paralysis.
I agree, the quality of care received is very lacking (especially in the US, I don't think anyone would argue otherwise), but if you find a physical therapist that is actually willing to look at your MRIs to determine what the mechanics of your particular situation are and work with you on what feels good vs what makes things worse, you'll be far better off. They do exist, it might take time to find them. If you go into a PT clinic and they don't even look at your imaging, I'd go somewhere else.
I just wanted to point out that your preconceived notions about kettle bells are way off. nothing “girly” about them. They have origins in russia and europe actually.
I got into Kettlebells after I watched this Russian strong man called 'Victor Blud's videos on YouTube.
Hell yeah. I just wish I knew that 10 years ago!
Most people should be doing at least some baseline level of both strength training AND cardio. Working around whatever injuries or anatomical issues they have. There's nothing wrong with treadmills.
Personally I have a history of patello-femoral problems, running is not the best exercise for me so if I am doing cardio I prefer the elliptical, AMT, ergometer, anything else. If I do want to walk I am going to do it in the woods around me.
I agree there's a fad today that trainers are more into weights than cardio. (Personally I love things like circuit training that are hybrids.)
I had a time period when I was under extreme stress and doing two hours a cardio, sometimes walking 12 miles a day, etc. It helped me make endless cold calls and deal with a huge amount of uncertainty.
I fainted when I was in an exercise class, working extra hard because I had a crush on the instructor, on an extremely hot day in a high humidity building after eating too much. I saw a number of doctors as a result including a cardiologist and spent a month wearing a portable EKG. I was told I had "Athlete's Heart" with visible changes on my sonogram and an abnormally low resting heart rate (so did my grandfather who died of mesothelioma around age 75 and so did President G. W. Bush who is still kicking at 78)
The Holter monitor caught about 10 bad heartbeats in the last 30 minutes of the study so I got a diagnosis of Atrial Fibrillation which I'm now being treated for. (Oddly a hare-brained scheme of mine had fallen apart right at that time which was a major stress source) My doc told me it was fine for me to do 1 hour of cardio a day but not more.
> Personally I have a history of patello-femoral problems
Look up "knees over toes guy". Seriously.